The creator of "The Daily" and "Witch Trials of JK Rowling" on his NYT exile, losing/finding faith, and "Reflector," a new pod whose first episode tackles addiction. Also: A duel over "Civil War"
I’ve heard people say they wish there was a pill they could take that would make it impossible for them to ever drink again. In fact, there is such a pill, though some hold it in disrepute. It’s Antabuse.
Antabuse has a very long half-life, so if you take it daily, it builds up in your system. If you drink alcohol with even just a trace amount of Antabuse in your bloodstream you'll get sick right away.
I used to find that my desire to stop drinking was strongest in the morning and would atrophy during the day. (Every drinker knows this feeling.) But if I mustered up enough willpower to take just one Antabuse after I woke up, I guaranteed myself about 3-4 days of sobriety. That was at least enough to put the brakes on a bender. Other times, I’d also take it before a big event where I knew I'd be tempted to drink: a party, a concert, or a trip. Often, right after taking the pill, I’d feel a tremendous wash of relief. I knew I wasn’t going to have to hem and haw about whether to drink. The pill just made the decision for me! There's no way to counteract it.
Obviously I was supposed to take it daily. But in my early days of quitting drinking, I wasn't quite ready for that. But it helped me get used to not drinking, for days or weeks at a time. It helped me discover that staying sober wasn’t as unpleasant as I’d made it out to be. Antabuse has a bad reputation in some quarters, but I encourage sober-curious drinkers to experiment with it. (I'm a bit puzzled as to why more people don't.)
I am so thankful for my faith - it is the only thing I'm certain about! I'm not even sure certain is the right word - I have my moments, but Jesus makes more sense to me than anything else out there. And I always understand the complaints people have about Christians. We're hypocrites - just like everyone else! I don't have the fundamental background Andy does. I hope he finds his way back - he clearly misses the comfort of God's love.
Sarah, I can't imagine the occasion that will lead you to write my introduction, but I'm sure it will be legendary!
I'm looking forward to all of these podcast recommendations 😀
I really enjoyed the conversation about faith in the episode. I have an interesting relationship with faith in my life. Grew up with a Catholic mom and an atheist dad. Rarely went to church when young, except my grandma would drag me there occasionally. My mom put me and my brother in religion classes for a few years but eventually we wanted to quit and my dad said that we shouldn't be forced to go. For whatever reason it just never spoke to me. When I was a teenager my uncle became an evangelical minister and ended up converting a large percentage of my family including my mom. Not sure why but there is nothing less appealing to me than my uncle's version of born again, evangelical, biblical literalism. I do find some aspects of Lutheran, Unitarian, and even Catholicism intriguing, but I just cant quite get all the way there. There are also some interesting ideas in other non Christian religions, like Buddhism and Judaism among others. For now, I am happy to just live my life as an Agnostic, but am always glad to hear when people find happiness in their religion. I will never understand the atheist crowd that is actively hostile toward religion.
I think drink throwing/pouring is sort of like slapping. A woman can throw a drink on a guy or even slap him if he's a jerk. But due to differences in physical strength a guy should never do this to a woman.
Re: civil war: Dan Carlin did a good podcast or essay on this; it's been few years so I can't remember the details. Anyway, he thought it was a very unlikely possibility. First of all, what territory are we fighting over? How would it even play out? We are all mixed in with each other politically. It wouldn't be brother vs brother, it would be parent vs child and that's a non starter. The majority of us are in the middle politically and think the far left and far right are both nuts.
Jeff Maurer of "I Might Be Wrong" wrote an interesting piece about why we all hate the campus protestors. Their very unintended consequence has been to expose that 2020 burned all of us out on civil unrest. They are kind of uniting us in our scorn of them.
I heard the drinking episode of Reflector and immediately thought, "Wow, I wonder what Sarah Hepola would say about this." So thank you all for the fascinating and unpredictable discussion! I hadn't realized that Bill Wilson had been in search of something like naltrexone.
As someone raised evangelical who's still a churchgoer, I really admire how Andy talks about his upbringing with such fairness and respect. A lot of "exvangelical" discourse is very angry, to the point that I often avoid it even if I agree with some of what's being said. Andy's measured approach is so refreshing. I agree with Jacqueline that I love how he talks about story and its relationship to faith.
How interesting to gain insight into the background of such a talented podcaster. It would be a treat to learn more about how they were made. and I look forward to what’s coming up.
My husband and I are both in AA and he’s a physician boarded in addiction medicine and he absolutely favors prescribing Naltrexone for a myriad of addictive/compulsive afflictions. They are starting to use it for so many things!
There won't be a civil war. Instead they'll be mass rioting. A plausible scenario is Trump wins the election with a minority of the votes again. Then the progressives declare the constitution invalid and take their frustration to the streets. It will make the George Floyd or Gaza riots look tame.
First of all I LOVED Witch Trials. In retrospect it was in fact the production of it that stuck out so much to me. I had limited interest in the whole trans / celebrity / cancellation thing, but the way it was structured and read out really lines up with the storytelling he was talking about. I digested the whole show in a sitting, which being a bit antsy and easily distracted, that is saying something.
About the whole bible / Infinite Jest thing: I had this theory for a while that people grossly underestimate the value of the book on its own. I am not a religious man. My dad was a pretty ruinous drunk, and his other passion was religion. We used to go to church everyday and twice on Sunday, so by the time he left when I was like 8 or 9 I had had about all of the church I could take. The bible however, was a bit different.
He left behind an incredible dog eared copy he always had with him as a sort of parting gift. It smelled of Pall Malls and whiskey, and hand little notes scribbled in the margins. It was one of those copies that had multi-colored text, index numbers and what not. It was like the teacher’s copy of the text book. I certainly couldn’t understand most of what was in there, but I still looked through it all the time and would add my own little things here and there.
Later in life two books gave me a similar vibe. The first was Infinite Jest, the second was House of Leaves. Both these books kind of consumed me whole sale. I wrote notes, I made charts, I felt a strong desire to talk to others who knew about this thing I had found. Not being much of a joiner, it was unlikely I would satisfy that desire.
However, if I took the book with me somewhere, someone was bound to want to talk about it. The book serves as both the object of, and receptacle for your obsession with its contents, and it can serve as the physical shibboleth of sorts to others of like mind. With the bible so many people know it as THE book, both interested and disinterested you often get a mixed bag of people approaching you. But I found with the other two you often get exactly the kind obsessive you are. As the years went on Infinite Jest attracted such attention that I ended up talking to more academics than I wanted. But House of Leaves still does the trick. Obviously if anyone hasn’t read it I would suggest it, tho as the first page of the book says “This book is not for you.” so go with God as they say. :D Anywho, great pod as always.
Powerful discussion about AA. Isn’t Antabuse and Naloxone the same thing? I don’t think either “work” if you’re not 12 stepping or otherwise in some therapy or support group.
People in NA think AAers are stuck in the past. Alanon is great if you think changing yourself will somehow change your perspective and therefore make things more bearable. Or it can help you leave the situation, detach with love and all that.
My father once dumped a beer on my Aunt’s head because she messed up his beautiful hair. He didn’t drink and it wasn’t his beer, still legendary family lore.
I’m not even 1/4 of a way through and Andy’s description of faith is so beautiful ❤️
I enjoyed this!
I’ve heard people say they wish there was a pill they could take that would make it impossible for them to ever drink again. In fact, there is such a pill, though some hold it in disrepute. It’s Antabuse.
Antabuse has a very long half-life, so if you take it daily, it builds up in your system. If you drink alcohol with even just a trace amount of Antabuse in your bloodstream you'll get sick right away.
I used to find that my desire to stop drinking was strongest in the morning and would atrophy during the day. (Every drinker knows this feeling.) But if I mustered up enough willpower to take just one Antabuse after I woke up, I guaranteed myself about 3-4 days of sobriety. That was at least enough to put the brakes on a bender. Other times, I’d also take it before a big event where I knew I'd be tempted to drink: a party, a concert, or a trip. Often, right after taking the pill, I’d feel a tremendous wash of relief. I knew I wasn’t going to have to hem and haw about whether to drink. The pill just made the decision for me! There's no way to counteract it.
Obviously I was supposed to take it daily. But in my early days of quitting drinking, I wasn't quite ready for that. But it helped me get used to not drinking, for days or weeks at a time. It helped me discover that staying sober wasn’t as unpleasant as I’d made it out to be. Antabuse has a bad reputation in some quarters, but I encourage sober-curious drinkers to experiment with it. (I'm a bit puzzled as to why more people don't.)
Wow, so interesting. I've never heard of it.
I am so thankful for my faith - it is the only thing I'm certain about! I'm not even sure certain is the right word - I have my moments, but Jesus makes more sense to me than anything else out there. And I always understand the complaints people have about Christians. We're hypocrites - just like everyone else! I don't have the fundamental background Andy does. I hope he finds his way back - he clearly misses the comfort of God's love.
Sarah, I can't imagine the occasion that will lead you to write my introduction, but I'm sure it will be legendary!
I'm looking forward to all of these podcast recommendations 😀
I really enjoyed the conversation about faith in the episode. I have an interesting relationship with faith in my life. Grew up with a Catholic mom and an atheist dad. Rarely went to church when young, except my grandma would drag me there occasionally. My mom put me and my brother in religion classes for a few years but eventually we wanted to quit and my dad said that we shouldn't be forced to go. For whatever reason it just never spoke to me. When I was a teenager my uncle became an evangelical minister and ended up converting a large percentage of my family including my mom. Not sure why but there is nothing less appealing to me than my uncle's version of born again, evangelical, biblical literalism. I do find some aspects of Lutheran, Unitarian, and even Catholicism intriguing, but I just cant quite get all the way there. There are also some interesting ideas in other non Christian religions, like Buddhism and Judaism among others. For now, I am happy to just live my life as an Agnostic, but am always glad to hear when people find happiness in their religion. I will never understand the atheist crowd that is actively hostile toward religion.
Great interview! I’ve been curious about what you (Sarah) thought about the new Reflector episode since I listened to it last week.
Who among us has not dumped a beer on someone’s head?
Technically I’m a two time throw a vodka drink directly in your face offender, as if I’m on Dallas.
I'm not sure I've ever dumped, but I did once dance on a table at the end of a party and kick off all the leftover glasses - NR
I think drink throwing/pouring is sort of like slapping. A woman can throw a drink on a guy or even slap him if he's a jerk. But due to differences in physical strength a guy should never do this to a woman.
I hear that, but I also sort of like the old fashioned "How dare you!" of it.
I enjoyed this episode so much!!
The pod keeps getting better and better.
Re: civil war: Dan Carlin did a good podcast or essay on this; it's been few years so I can't remember the details. Anyway, he thought it was a very unlikely possibility. First of all, what territory are we fighting over? How would it even play out? We are all mixed in with each other politically. It wouldn't be brother vs brother, it would be parent vs child and that's a non starter. The majority of us are in the middle politically and think the far left and far right are both nuts.
Jeff Maurer of "I Might Be Wrong" wrote an interesting piece about why we all hate the campus protestors. Their very unintended consequence has been to expose that 2020 burned all of us out on civil unrest. They are kind of uniting us in our scorn of them.
Doesn't matter how long, leave 'em wanting more, and that certainly applied today, thanks so much guys!
Good outro, love a bit of Dehd!
[9:40] That’s probably the best explanation I’ve ever heard about Bible ‘cherry-picking’, it made total sense to me as an ex-fundamentalist.
What a blow-mind of an episode! Congratulations.
I heard the drinking episode of Reflector and immediately thought, "Wow, I wonder what Sarah Hepola would say about this." So thank you all for the fascinating and unpredictable discussion! I hadn't realized that Bill Wilson had been in search of something like naltrexone.
As someone raised evangelical who's still a churchgoer, I really admire how Andy talks about his upbringing with such fairness and respect. A lot of "exvangelical" discourse is very angry, to the point that I often avoid it even if I agree with some of what's being said. Andy's measured approach is so refreshing. I agree with Jacqueline that I love how he talks about story and its relationship to faith.
I listened all the way to the end—to hearing Nancy and Sarah discover Sarah J Mass I’m weeping 😭😭😭
How interesting to gain insight into the background of such a talented podcaster. It would be a treat to learn more about how they were made. and I look forward to what’s coming up.
My husband and I are both in AA and he’s a physician boarded in addiction medicine and he absolutely favors prescribing Naltrexone for a myriad of addictive/compulsive afflictions. They are starting to use it for so many things!
There won't be a civil war. Instead they'll be mass rioting. A plausible scenario is Trump wins the election with a minority of the votes again. Then the progressives declare the constitution invalid and take their frustration to the streets. It will make the George Floyd or Gaza riots look tame.
Novel incoming, shocker.
First of all I LOVED Witch Trials. In retrospect it was in fact the production of it that stuck out so much to me. I had limited interest in the whole trans / celebrity / cancellation thing, but the way it was structured and read out really lines up with the storytelling he was talking about. I digested the whole show in a sitting, which being a bit antsy and easily distracted, that is saying something.
About the whole bible / Infinite Jest thing: I had this theory for a while that people grossly underestimate the value of the book on its own. I am not a religious man. My dad was a pretty ruinous drunk, and his other passion was religion. We used to go to church everyday and twice on Sunday, so by the time he left when I was like 8 or 9 I had had about all of the church I could take. The bible however, was a bit different.
He left behind an incredible dog eared copy he always had with him as a sort of parting gift. It smelled of Pall Malls and whiskey, and hand little notes scribbled in the margins. It was one of those copies that had multi-colored text, index numbers and what not. It was like the teacher’s copy of the text book. I certainly couldn’t understand most of what was in there, but I still looked through it all the time and would add my own little things here and there.
Later in life two books gave me a similar vibe. The first was Infinite Jest, the second was House of Leaves. Both these books kind of consumed me whole sale. I wrote notes, I made charts, I felt a strong desire to talk to others who knew about this thing I had found. Not being much of a joiner, it was unlikely I would satisfy that desire.
However, if I took the book with me somewhere, someone was bound to want to talk about it. The book serves as both the object of, and receptacle for your obsession with its contents, and it can serve as the physical shibboleth of sorts to others of like mind. With the bible so many people know it as THE book, both interested and disinterested you often get a mixed bag of people approaching you. But I found with the other two you often get exactly the kind obsessive you are. As the years went on Infinite Jest attracted such attention that I ended up talking to more academics than I wanted. But House of Leaves still does the trick. Obviously if anyone hasn’t read it I would suggest it, tho as the first page of the book says “This book is not for you.” so go with God as they say. :D Anywho, great pod as always.
Powerful discussion about AA. Isn’t Antabuse and Naloxone the same thing? I don’t think either “work” if you’re not 12 stepping or otherwise in some therapy or support group.
People in NA think AAers are stuck in the past. Alanon is great if you think changing yourself will somehow change your perspective and therefore make things more bearable. Or it can help you leave the situation, detach with love and all that.
My father once dumped a beer on my Aunt’s head because she messed up his beautiful hair. He didn’t drink and it wasn’t his beer, still legendary family lore.