Is the Depp-Heard verdict "chilling," or proof of a messier truth? Is Teal Swan the most dangerous spiritual guru alive? Also: "Maverick," crow's feet, and at least one Paul Newman anecdote
Kool-Aid just achieved the name recognition to transcend brand, like Band-Aid, Kleenex, Taser, Xerox, Frigidaire, or for my cousins in the Great Plains, Davenport(for sofa). I was 10 (about to be 11) when Jonestown happened, and I lived in California, near the coast, a ways south of San Francisco. I know the reports were about Flavor Aid, but we’ll almost always call it Kool Aid because it’s the brand name generic that everyone understands. I get the pet peeve and extra points for accuracy for sure, but I guess I just have drunk the Kool-Aid on this.
Nancy & Sarah: So many enjoyable moments in this podcast, 93 minutes long; I was about to start on a neighborhood walk, so I made sure the walk was at least that long. You made me laugh out loud a few times, fortunately no neighbors were disturbed as I walked by. (But if they had been, I would have told them why!) Many good moments; I was particularly struck by Sarah's discussion about what one does and does not remember about a blackout.
You mentioned the documentary of Ira Glasser about the ACLU - I have not seen that, but I remember a good interview that Nick Gillespie did with him about that, a year, or maybe two years, ago. Worth a listen.
So many good topics; I might have to listen again to refresh my memory.
You've asked for reader emails with questions, etc. -- I may be missing something obvious, but I'm not sure where or who to send those to, other than leaving a comment on a specific podcast.
I am sorry that I am too lazy to actually carry out my bingo idea, but I did admit that up front! I hope there are some great crowd sourced square ideas that can be randomized 😀
As always, this was a wide ranging and fascinating discussion.
I really look forward to Nancy’s reporting from San Francisco (a city I love and where I worked for almost 10 years), and I will be interested in Sarah’s opus on the trial, even though I would not be that interested without Sarah’s in depth enthusiasm.
My time is always well invested listening to your conversations. Sorry I am still a freeloader, but I did get my Apple Podcast review turned in, so I’ve staved off guilt for a few more weeks.
Oh and once again, I’m so so grateful to Sarah for lighting the way to a deeper understanding of what blackout drinking actually is. Pun intended. Your bravery and clarity on the subject is deep.
Just want to point out again what an excellent resource the extensive show notes on these episodes are. Plop yourself down in a cafe with some good coffee and you can while away a morning or afternoon perusing them and following up in all the extra reading material. A quiet pleasure 😎
I have an acute case of Teal Swan delirium, having just binged all 3 episodes of The Deep End.
Listening to your (brilliant, as always) podcast, I thought there was no way I could stomach such a series. But lo and behold, the second my husband fell asleep, I felt the lure of the cult doc, as I have many times before.
I went through the full 7 Stages of Teal: 1) Mesmerized by her Crystal Gayle henna’d hair and her piercing blue eyes. 2) Stunned at her level of confidence and assertiveness. 3) Confused by the symbolic tattoos. 4) Impressed that a self-help guru had the balls to swear like a sailor 5) Nauseous at her self-absorption. 6) Horrified by her narcissistic cruelty. 7) Grateful this story is being told, so people stay away from this stark raving lunatic!!!
That said, if you two got a compound in Utah, I would TOTALLY join your cult!
Hi, you all keep talking about emailing questions but I don’t see an email, or do people just comment here and on Twitter? I’m pretty new to substack.
A couple years ago I came across this old book from the 70s called Diana the Making of a Terrorist about a woman who got involved in radical student activism and died in her Manhattan apartment while trying to make a bomb. I remember she was only identified by her fingerprint and it destroyed the building there was a photo. She was a Bryn Mawr graduate and was really affected by seeing poverty in Latin America. The Jeffrey Toobin (spell) book about Patty Hearst was pretty good too.
Please bear with my continued spewing here, but first I have to say, you're both spot on that Ms Heard could have been far more impactful spokesperson as a survivor of a toxic relationship than a DA/SV survivor who "faced our culture's wrath". Sarah, I know your article--however long it takes for you to write it as well and nuanced as I know you will--will do more justice to this case than most anything I've read in the media so far.
1) Re the plane flight incident and Stephen Deuters' text exchanges with Ms. Heard:
These texts, about Johnny crying when he heard he'd kicked AH during the flight, sicken me bc they very well could be truthful, but they were inadmissible here bc they were considered hearsay bc they were bw Deuters and Heard (and idk why, but Deuters didn't testify here...) But there's probably so much evidence on BOTH SIDES (not just on Heard's) that was deemed inadmissible, and the jurors had to, in good faith, consider the evidence and testimony they were given.
2) To your very valid point about blackouts and how JD most likely couldn't remember things he did: Ms. Heard also drank a lot. How much do EITHER of them remember of any given incident? (And my god, if you listen to the recording, during her cross exam, of her cackling and taunting JD--telling him in a theatrical/Bette Davis-like voice to "go be a real married man...go run to the next house, every man does... run away..."-- tell me she wasn't on something.)
3) Drugs most likely fueled a lot of the fights; Johnny never denied he used. But Ms. Heard did drugs too. [E.g., in a recording during the aftermath of the Australia incident, while staff are searching for Johnny's finger, she says "...all I was poppin was Xanax, Adderall, Ectasy, and hallucinogens..." (This Australia recording was inadmissible, I think, bc, JD bodyguard Jerry Judge, now deceased, is in the recording).]
But statements about excessive alcohol/drug use, photos of AH's flawless face submitted as proof of injuries that are impossible (& even Ms. Heard says may be hard) to discern, and photos of Johnny passed out were primary elements that she/her legal team used (out of the "mountains of evidence" she says she has) in court to substantiate her stories of the alleged brutal violence JD inflicted upon her, i.e., used to prove that she didn't defame JD in the op-ed article. And yes, you're spot on: "the way that she ...weaponized (her) stories for maximum carnage" "really did herself no favors"...especially if you just look at the photos.
Jun 8, 2022·edited Jun 8, 2022Liked by Smoke 'Em If You Got 'Em
Just heard from two attorneys (one whom I emailed, LDBlondPod is her Twitter handle) that Stephen Deuters apparently wasn't subpoenaed by Amber Heard's legal team. (If they wanted to get his texts into evidence, and question him, why didn't they subpoena him?)
Now that is a mystery. Deuters' wife was brought in by Johnny's team, as you probably remember, but we never heard her testimony, because she was dismissed when it came up on the stand that she'd seen social media commentary. (If I understand this episode correctly, this detail was brought up by Heard's girlfriend Eve Barlow, who was then kicked out of the courtroom for tweeting during trial.) The drama.
Sarah, Gary Cooper was in so many great movies: Seargent York; Pride of the Yankees; Wings; High Noon; Ball of Fire; Meet John Doe. Personally, I am partial to Mr. Deeds Goes To Town and the two Lubitsch films he did, Design for Living and Bluebeard's Eighth Wife.
And speaking of Flavoraid, did anyone catch the scene in episode 2 of The Deep End where they're all on the porch drinking some colorful mixed drinks. Teal makes some reference to it being the color of Blake's aura and everyone is talking about refreshing the stuff is but when Julianna takes a sip, she makes a disgusted face and is clearly not into it. I don't know if it was intentional, but I definitely read that as a Jonestown reference.
Hi! Sarah, you started off w/your thoughts about why this (U.S.) trial went in JD's favor vs the UK trial, and I had to pause it for a minute to respond. Don't quote me on any of this (and I'm sure you'll be doing your own, better, thorough research about this), but the UK trial was a different case entirely: That trial was JD suing the Sun for their article (which included calling him a "wife beater"). The Sun only had to prove that they wrote what they were told/didn't have to prove what they wrote was true, because what they wrote WAS true according to their main source, Amber Heard. Their main witness to that trial was Amber Heard. Because she was a witness (not a defendant), her evidence didn't have to go thru the scrutiny of "discovery" that was required in the U.S. case (including turning over all of her devices, although for some reason she never submitted her ORIGINAL photos...)
The UK judge believed all of her statements (or 12 out of the 13 or 14); I believed her, too, the first day of her testimony here--I felt sick for her, I was almost crying for her. But for some reason, after that first day, I felt a bit odd...less drawn into her narrative, I can't quite describe it. Then, during her several cross examinations, I no longer bought most of what she said. I will try to find some reliable info/sources about the UK trial and will send you links if I do, but people are getting it wrong, and ELAINE (one of Heard's lead attorneys) keeps misinforming the public in her post-verdict morning talkshow interviews: she keeps saying Amber won the UK trial; she didn't, the Sun did. (And she had a bigger hurdle to get over in the US trial because Johnny was suing her and was able to bring in more testimony, evidence, witnesses, etc.)
Also, yes, the ACLU was looking for heard to be an ambassador for DA survivors because Aquaman was about to be released so she had star power and her article would have a much larger reach out to the public. (Their witness testified to that in court too; something to the effect that they always look for a big name with a big social media presence, to help get their message out to a wider audience.)
The more I watch about Teal Swan.. the more I am convinced she is as I believe Nancy said... a Narcissistic Sociopath. Complete absorbed with herself and disregards the legitimacy and feelings of others.
I hadn't heard about The Deep End before hearing you two talk about it. I'll watch the episodes that are out tonight. I think you've mentioned the podcast/article by Jennings Brown (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-gateway-teal-swan/id1387560474). I think it's excellent and recommend it to anyone who hasn't heard it. I'm puzzled by her appeal - clearly it's there, but I just don't get it. If Nancy and Sarah think that legal action is a possibility based on what they see in the doc, I'm kind of frightened by what I'll see, since, based on the podcast, I already thought she was a monster.
I hadn’t heard about it before the podcast either. Not sure I would’ve watched it on my own. Hopefully we will do a zoom discussion on it once the last episode is released. It has definitely been a wild ride. It’ll be interesting to hear everyone’s takes.
Can’t wait for the deep end zoom. And big ups to Nancy for using the correct “flavor-aid”. (Clearly a very petty pet peeve of mine)
We can thank Nick Gillespie for this, as he's more than once pointed out on the Reason Roundtable that is was NOT Kool-Aid!
Kool-Aid just achieved the name recognition to transcend brand, like Band-Aid, Kleenex, Taser, Xerox, Frigidaire, or for my cousins in the Great Plains, Davenport(for sofa). I was 10 (about to be 11) when Jonestown happened, and I lived in California, near the coast, a ways south of San Francisco. I know the reports were about Flavor Aid, but we’ll almost always call it Kool Aid because it’s the brand name generic that everyone understands. I get the pet peeve and extra points for accuracy for sure, but I guess I just have drunk the Kool-Aid on this.
I noticed as well. Thank you Nancy.
Nancy & Sarah: So many enjoyable moments in this podcast, 93 minutes long; I was about to start on a neighborhood walk, so I made sure the walk was at least that long. You made me laugh out loud a few times, fortunately no neighbors were disturbed as I walked by. (But if they had been, I would have told them why!) Many good moments; I was particularly struck by Sarah's discussion about what one does and does not remember about a blackout.
You mentioned the documentary of Ira Glasser about the ACLU - I have not seen that, but I remember a good interview that Nick Gillespie did with him about that, a year, or maybe two years, ago. Worth a listen.
So many good topics; I might have to listen again to refresh my memory.
You've asked for reader emails with questions, etc. -- I may be missing something obvious, but I'm not sure where or who to send those to, other than leaving a comment on a specific podcast.
Thank you!
I am sorry that I am too lazy to actually carry out my bingo idea, but I did admit that up front! I hope there are some great crowd sourced square ideas that can be randomized 😀
As always, this was a wide ranging and fascinating discussion.
I really look forward to Nancy’s reporting from San Francisco (a city I love and where I worked for almost 10 years), and I will be interested in Sarah’s opus on the trial, even though I would not be that interested without Sarah’s in depth enthusiasm.
My time is always well invested listening to your conversations. Sorry I am still a freeloader, but I did get my Apple Podcast review turned in, so I’ve staved off guilt for a few more weeks.
Keep up the great work!
Oh and once again, I’m so so grateful to Sarah for lighting the way to a deeper understanding of what blackout drinking actually is. Pun intended. Your bravery and clarity on the subject is deep.
I've got the receipts. -- SH (Thanks, friend.)
Just want to point out again what an excellent resource the extensive show notes on these episodes are. Plop yourself down in a cafe with some good coffee and you can while away a morning or afternoon perusing them and following up in all the extra reading material. A quiet pleasure 😎
I have an acute case of Teal Swan delirium, having just binged all 3 episodes of The Deep End.
Listening to your (brilliant, as always) podcast, I thought there was no way I could stomach such a series. But lo and behold, the second my husband fell asleep, I felt the lure of the cult doc, as I have many times before.
I went through the full 7 Stages of Teal: 1) Mesmerized by her Crystal Gayle henna’d hair and her piercing blue eyes. 2) Stunned at her level of confidence and assertiveness. 3) Confused by the symbolic tattoos. 4) Impressed that a self-help guru had the balls to swear like a sailor 5) Nauseous at her self-absorption. 6) Horrified by her narcissistic cruelty. 7) Grateful this story is being told, so people stay away from this stark raving lunatic!!!
That said, if you two got a compound in Utah, I would TOTALLY join your cult!
Best comment contender!!!
I would start a compound in Utah with you, Nancy. -- SH
Smoke ‘Em Utah cult.... I’m in 😎😎
Hi, you all keep talking about emailing questions but I don’t see an email, or do people just comment here and on Twitter? I’m pretty new to substack.
A couple years ago I came across this old book from the 70s called Diana the Making of a Terrorist about a woman who got involved in radical student activism and died in her Manhattan apartment while trying to make a bomb. I remember she was only identified by her fingerprint and it destroyed the building there was a photo. She was a Bryn Mawr graduate and was really affected by seeing poverty in Latin America. The Jeffrey Toobin (spell) book about Patty Hearst was pretty good too.
That's a good question about the email - I don't really know! You can comment here or smokeempodcast@gmail.com but I think there also is a mechanism here to message directly from Substack. Do not know about "Diana..." but did review the Toobin/Patty Hearst book https://www.newsday.com/entertainment/books/american-heiress-review-jeffrey-toobin-reopens-the-patty-hearst-case-p16238
Please bear with my continued spewing here, but first I have to say, you're both spot on that Ms Heard could have been far more impactful spokesperson as a survivor of a toxic relationship than a DA/SV survivor who "faced our culture's wrath". Sarah, I know your article--however long it takes for you to write it as well and nuanced as I know you will--will do more justice to this case than most anything I've read in the media so far.
1) Re the plane flight incident and Stephen Deuters' text exchanges with Ms. Heard:
These texts, about Johnny crying when he heard he'd kicked AH during the flight, sicken me bc they very well could be truthful, but they were inadmissible here bc they were considered hearsay bc they were bw Deuters and Heard (and idk why, but Deuters didn't testify here...) But there's probably so much evidence on BOTH SIDES (not just on Heard's) that was deemed inadmissible, and the jurors had to, in good faith, consider the evidence and testimony they were given.
2) To your very valid point about blackouts and how JD most likely couldn't remember things he did: Ms. Heard also drank a lot. How much do EITHER of them remember of any given incident? (And my god, if you listen to the recording, during her cross exam, of her cackling and taunting JD--telling him in a theatrical/Bette Davis-like voice to "go be a real married man...go run to the next house, every man does... run away..."-- tell me she wasn't on something.)
3) Drugs most likely fueled a lot of the fights; Johnny never denied he used. But Ms. Heard did drugs too. [E.g., in a recording during the aftermath of the Australia incident, while staff are searching for Johnny's finger, she says "...all I was poppin was Xanax, Adderall, Ectasy, and hallucinogens..." (This Australia recording was inadmissible, I think, bc, JD bodyguard Jerry Judge, now deceased, is in the recording).]
But statements about excessive alcohol/drug use, photos of AH's flawless face submitted as proof of injuries that are impossible (& even Ms. Heard says may be hard) to discern, and photos of Johnny passed out were primary elements that she/her legal team used (out of the "mountains of evidence" she says she has) in court to substantiate her stories of the alleged brutal violence JD inflicted upon her, i.e., used to prove that she didn't defame JD in the op-ed article. And yes, you're spot on: "the way that she ...weaponized (her) stories for maximum carnage" "really did herself no favors"...especially if you just look at the photos.
Just heard from two attorneys (one whom I emailed, LDBlondPod is her Twitter handle) that Stephen Deuters apparently wasn't subpoenaed by Amber Heard's legal team. (If they wanted to get his texts into evidence, and question him, why didn't they subpoena him?)
Now that is a mystery. Deuters' wife was brought in by Johnny's team, as you probably remember, but we never heard her testimony, because she was dismissed when it came up on the stand that she'd seen social media commentary. (If I understand this episode correctly, this detail was brought up by Heard's girlfriend Eve Barlow, who was then kicked out of the courtroom for tweeting during trial.) The drama.
Great points. And yes, these were two very heavy drinkers/drug users (a classic combo). Heard sounds so loaded in some of those audios.
Sarah, Gary Cooper was in so many great movies: Seargent York; Pride of the Yankees; Wings; High Noon; Ball of Fire; Meet John Doe. Personally, I am partial to Mr. Deeds Goes To Town and the two Lubitsch films he did, Design for Living and Bluebeard's Eighth Wife.
And speaking of Flavoraid, did anyone catch the scene in episode 2 of The Deep End where they're all on the porch drinking some colorful mixed drinks. Teal makes some reference to it being the color of Blake's aura and everyone is talking about refreshing the stuff is but when Julianna takes a sip, she makes a disgusted face and is clearly not into it. I don't know if it was intentional, but I definitely read that as a Jonestown reference.
It's official: I have never seen a Gary Cooper movie. Nice catch on the flavor-aid reference!
Hi! Sarah, you started off w/your thoughts about why this (U.S.) trial went in JD's favor vs the UK trial, and I had to pause it for a minute to respond. Don't quote me on any of this (and I'm sure you'll be doing your own, better, thorough research about this), but the UK trial was a different case entirely: That trial was JD suing the Sun for their article (which included calling him a "wife beater"). The Sun only had to prove that they wrote what they were told/didn't have to prove what they wrote was true, because what they wrote WAS true according to their main source, Amber Heard. Their main witness to that trial was Amber Heard. Because she was a witness (not a defendant), her evidence didn't have to go thru the scrutiny of "discovery" that was required in the U.S. case (including turning over all of her devices, although for some reason she never submitted her ORIGINAL photos...)
The UK judge believed all of her statements (or 12 out of the 13 or 14); I believed her, too, the first day of her testimony here--I felt sick for her, I was almost crying for her. But for some reason, after that first day, I felt a bit odd...less drawn into her narrative, I can't quite describe it. Then, during her several cross examinations, I no longer bought most of what she said. I will try to find some reliable info/sources about the UK trial and will send you links if I do, but people are getting it wrong, and ELAINE (one of Heard's lead attorneys) keeps misinforming the public in her post-verdict morning talkshow interviews: she keeps saying Amber won the UK trial; she didn't, the Sun did. (And she had a bigger hurdle to get over in the US trial because Johnny was suing her and was able to bring in more testimony, evidence, witnesses, etc.)
All great points. It makes me cringe when Elaine/Amber refers to "winning the UK trial." No you did not.
Right. As a witness only in the UK trial, Amber didn't have to answer to any cross examinations...
Also, yes, the ACLU was looking for heard to be an ambassador for DA survivors because Aquaman was about to be released so she had star power and her article would have a much larger reach out to the public. (Their witness testified to that in court too; something to the effect that they always look for a big name with a big social media presence, to help get their message out to a wider audience.)
Saving this for a quiet moment. Thanks!
You've picked up another cult documentary enthusiast in my husband! Now I'm committed to watching the whole Teal Swan saga.
My boyfriend and I are also watching it. Like Sarah, I’m curious as to how they will wrap this all up in 4 episodes!!
The more I watch about Teal Swan.. the more I am convinced she is as I believe Nancy said... a Narcissistic Sociopath. Complete absorbed with herself and disregards the legitimacy and feelings of others.
I also love crows feet on men and women!
I hadn't heard about The Deep End before hearing you two talk about it. I'll watch the episodes that are out tonight. I think you've mentioned the podcast/article by Jennings Brown (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-gateway-teal-swan/id1387560474). I think it's excellent and recommend it to anyone who hasn't heard it. I'm puzzled by her appeal - clearly it's there, but I just don't get it. If Nancy and Sarah think that legal action is a possibility based on what they see in the doc, I'm kind of frightened by what I'll see, since, based on the podcast, I already thought she was a monster.
I hadn’t heard about it before the podcast either. Not sure I would’ve watched it on my own. Hopefully we will do a zoom discussion on it once the last episode is released. It has definitely been a wild ride. It’ll be interesting to hear everyone’s takes.
Highly recommend HUD, with Paul Newman and Patricia Neal, and brilliantly photographed by pioneering Asian American cinematographer James Wong Howe
Looking forward to the next zoom about the Depp verdict now that I'm all paid up.