It's journalism meltdown week, and we discuss the media circus at the Washington Post, centered on two controversial female reporters. Also: regret sex vs. sexual assault and "do men regret sex, too"?
Jun 8, 2022·edited Jun 8, 2022Liked by Smoke 'Em If You Got 'Em
I’ve been thinking about how to express why I love this podcast — specifically you two talking about cultural issues. I was so excited when I saw this episode last night and it got a little clearer. It’s going to sound trite but I appreciate nuanced conversations that leave the petty swiping at the door. These issues are so charged it’s easy to feel like you need to fight for a side. I feel like you two have a POV but you temper it with facts and compassion.
This episode wasn’t an all out takedown of TL and FS (even though it could’ve been and I 100% would’ve been here for that) but instead you kept it spacious. I felt this way with you two and the Depp - Heard trial. I barely paid attention to social media because it felt like people were watching two different trials. I felt like there was room for the messiness of it all. Anyways, you two have a calming effect on me in this sea of insanity ❤️ Very grateful for your voices.
Please don’t regret this episode! I loved listening to it. As for general comments on how awesome you ladies are: I didn’t realize it until being introduced to your work, but your voices have filled a need in my life. I read Blackout last month, read Queens of Montague Street this morning, and your podcast has quickly made it to the top of my Must Listen To Upon Release list. I think there are angles to the stories you talk about that only straight women can unpack (with no offense to the lesbian podcasters I listen to). I'm a pretty private person in general so I don't have these type of conversations with my (admittedly few) female friends, but your discussions on sex and relationships echo a lot of my own thoughts while being really insightful.
Listened to most this episode on the way in to work this morning. Listening to Nancy and Sarah share themselves and their passions for journalism and life in general feels like such a unique privilege. Nancy expressed something so profound when she said that people are trying to fill up an emptiness in themselves with sex or the pain of others but that it can’t be filled with those things. But then she went on to say something even more profound and even beautiful. That those of us who are fortunate enough to find that fulfillment, can and should then let it overflow and be a blessing to those around us.(my paraphrase). I feel like that is what happens on Smoke ‘Em. Two wonderful journalists, full of passion and interested in life, are letting that joy and passion overflow to us listeners with intelligent, witty and tender conversation. It’s a rare and beautiful experience and I am thankful for it.
I have a long and fraught relationship with WAPO. For nearly a half century, it’s been my local paper. I was a print subscriber until 2020 and I still have a digital subscription. True story: my wife once had a white bathrobe she ruined over the course of a year when the sleeves became blacked by the newsprint of the Post: this is how much time she spent with the paper every morning. She still faithfully reads the “Print Replica” every morning.
Long before the “Democracy dies in Darkness” era, I began to become disillusioned with the paper as the condescending snarkiness that was usually only found only in the “Style” section of the paper moved into the reporting in other parts of the paper. I now have to scroll through the endless alarmist headlines of the digital edition to get to the “Metro” section that covers local news. Schadenfreude is one of my favorite words and I thoroughly enjoyed listening to your takes on the latest WAPO scandal. Democracy dies in darkness indeed and with spyware. Thanks.
It's incredibly depressing to me that someone like Felicia Sonmez wields so much power at an institution like the Washingon Post and, by extension, in the broader culture.
I don't think it's unfair, unkind, or hyperbolic to say that given the evidence presented, she seems like a narcissistic sociopath.
I think it's important to state straight up that women, as well as men, can and do fit that description. And that those who do pose serious dangers to others and wreak incredible damage.
In some ways, it's nice to think that their sociopathic narcissism stems from some wellspring of pain that can be filled and addressed. But in my experience with such people, that's highly unlikely. And I think it's important, if sad, to recognize that.
True, we can and should hold out hope for the best. But it's unwise to imagine that positive change is likely to be coming anytime remotely soon - or ever.
Hi I didn't even know about this podcast until I went looking for any podcasts about the Sonmez dustup. I would just like to say I read Sarah's book and liked it a lot. I didn't even know she had done the series at Jezebel. Off to look at those now. I agree that maybe if people had sex sober there would be less messiness and maybe less grabbing a la scooter incident and more smoothness/finesse/everybody enjoys it. I almost feel like people feel they have to get drunk for some kind of plausible deniability. But getting too drunk can lead to the grabby "scooter incident" type stuff that changes the mood, for one thing. Not to mention the blackout part. Sarah's book really helped educate me on what blackouts are. The best I can remember she said some people are susceptible to blackouts more than others and if you are one of those people, you need to be even more on guard. Anyway will definitely listen to more episodes.
Oh gosh -- it's sad if people are deciding whether to have kids based on (the mostly overblown) worries about climate - or even more sad, about who is President. Nancy is exactly right -- the child you have might well "solve it", make it better, provide numerous alternatives, etc. Our greatest resource is the human brain. If you want kids, you should have them. Arnold Kling recently wrote on his Substack that one of the greatest things in the world is having grandkids and that he didn't know that at age 20. I didn't have kids so won't have grandkids, but I sure do enjoy the kids and grandkids of my friends. Oh, and Sarah's quote from "Cosmos" is great. Thank you; I think I need to listen to this episode again. And - love the episode title, too!
Listening to this podcast is making me smarter. And a better person. I just read that FS was fired from WaPo, a bit of news that would have flown right over my head a week ago.
I know this is a years-old topic now, but I would be curious to hear Smoke 'Em's take on the Covington Catholic thingy at the Lincoln Memorial in January of 2019. Not sure if that's something you'd consider chatting about, if briefly.
A few thoughts from re-listening to this podcast, plus a re-listen to #4 and #5
I quite liked the party analogy -- going to a party vs putting on a party. Never thought about it that way before.
The good show notes continue -- liked the clip of the Cosmos opening, as I haven't seen "Cosmos" since it originally aired. Nice to see that couple of minutes.
You note the book "Going Solo" - I don't remember a reference to it in the podcast. The book looks interesting; perhaps you can spend a few minutes talking about it and why you included it.
Back in 4 & 5 you were just beginning to talk about Depp-Heard and at that time it wasn't known about the ACLU involvement in the WaPo op-ed. So much more known now.
Also back then you got started on an argument about malls, pro and con, and considered that you should do an episode on malls. I think that could be pretty interesting.
Also in #4, Sarah mentioned a mock election poll in 1st grade for Reagan & Mondale, and how she was the only one who chose Mondale. Hah - that brought back memories for me -- 3rd grade, 1960, Kennedy & Nixon. My class was something like 28-7 for Nixon, so the actual result was surprising to me (I knew nothing about the politics/issues at the time.) This was in San Diego; pretty Republican at the time and after all Nixon was from California.
Thank you again for sharing your stories and thoughts.
Wow, a retrospective already! I briefly mentioned “Going Solo” but I only used the author’s name, Eric Klinenberg, who has written extensively about the move toward living alone, fewer children, less marriage -- the march of western affluence. It’s a fascination for me, I read a lot on that subject.
This episode was fantastic. Really appreciated your thoughts on FS. I've been observing her from afar for sometime. She's a mentally unstable person who wields a lot of power and has used it repeatedly to destroy others. It's so frustrating and so sad.
As someone fascinated the last several years with learning things I would have never guessed about other professions, I very much enjoy the inside baseball on journalism, even when I feel I have little I can contribute to the conversation.🙂
#10 -- "... if there's one link you read in our show notes, read this ..." --
So this is "Who is the Bad Art Friend?", and I can't read more than the first paragraph, because it's tricky to sneak past the New York Times paywall and I'm not going to pay them, but I see it begins with donating a kidney, which immediately makes me think of one of my favorite authors, Virginia Postrel. Maybe y'all can talk a bit more about this in a future podcast.
#10: Sarah is about to travel to the Depp-Heard trial and can't know how she is going to meet Nick Wallis. Fun! ;-)
#11: about the lunar eclipse -- all these fancy names for full moons and eclipses -- astronomy has been a casual hobby since I was a kid, and I think these names are mostly recent fiction. I do remember "Harvest Moon" and "Blood Moon" from decades ago, but not the names they have for every single full moon. In any case, lunar eclipses are always fun to see -- missed this one thanks to clouds. Everybody should have some kind of Moon app on their phone, of course.
#11: the book "Helter Skelter" -- read that when it came out. I found it great back then. Apparently somebody recently wrote a book that refutes or disputes some of Helter Skelter? Now can't find the link to this new book. Looking forward to the Book and Music clubs.
#11: Cheryl Strayed: a good friend recommended her book "Wild" years ago -- it was great. You should have her on the podcast.
I am enjoying listening to episodes from a few weeks ago -- a) just as good the second time around, b) I pick up things I missed or glossed over before, and c) it's a bit of time traveling. Recommended.
This was a GREAT episode. Kudos to both of you. I find that I disagree with Nancy a lot -- which, as you always hasten to say, is a good/healthy thing! -- and this episode was no exception, so I wanted to ask about something Nancy said (and in fact repeated for emphasis--it's at the 1:28:00 mark) in this episode: "We make our worlds." I don't want to attack a straw man, so can you elaborate on what you meant by that? Thanks and keep up the great work!
I’ve been thinking about how to express why I love this podcast — specifically you two talking about cultural issues. I was so excited when I saw this episode last night and it got a little clearer. It’s going to sound trite but I appreciate nuanced conversations that leave the petty swiping at the door. These issues are so charged it’s easy to feel like you need to fight for a side. I feel like you two have a POV but you temper it with facts and compassion.
This episode wasn’t an all out takedown of TL and FS (even though it could’ve been and I 100% would’ve been here for that) but instead you kept it spacious. I felt this way with you two and the Depp - Heard trial. I barely paid attention to social media because it felt like people were watching two different trials. I felt like there was room for the messiness of it all. Anyways, you two have a calming effect on me in this sea of insanity ❤️ Very grateful for your voices.
"Room for the messiness of it all" is our motto. -- SH
This!
Please don’t regret this episode! I loved listening to it. As for general comments on how awesome you ladies are: I didn’t realize it until being introduced to your work, but your voices have filled a need in my life. I read Blackout last month, read Queens of Montague Street this morning, and your podcast has quickly made it to the top of my Must Listen To Upon Release list. I think there are angles to the stories you talk about that only straight women can unpack (with no offense to the lesbian podcasters I listen to). I'm a pretty private person in general so I don't have these type of conversations with my (admittedly few) female friends, but your discussions on sex and relationships echo a lot of my own thoughts while being really insightful.
I wish you guys could have a livestream podcast that just goes on all day. 🤗💜
Listened to most this episode on the way in to work this morning. Listening to Nancy and Sarah share themselves and their passions for journalism and life in general feels like such a unique privilege. Nancy expressed something so profound when she said that people are trying to fill up an emptiness in themselves with sex or the pain of others but that it can’t be filled with those things. But then she went on to say something even more profound and even beautiful. That those of us who are fortunate enough to find that fulfillment, can and should then let it overflow and be a blessing to those around us.(my paraphrase). I feel like that is what happens on Smoke ‘Em. Two wonderful journalists, full of passion and interested in life, are letting that joy and passion overflow to us listeners with intelligent, witty and tender conversation. It’s a rare and beautiful experience and I am thankful for it.
Also, the next T-Shirt... “I’m Allsidesism” 😎
Amen!!! And I would wear that shirt. I really feel “Hot For Due Process” should be a tank top.
Yes. In a nice stretchy rib to show off our assets!
Bingo Card Suggestions:
Saying the Name of the Podcast.
Whenever Sarah makes Nancy blush with sex talk.
Boob Mentions.
Whenever Nancy or Sarah say I love you to each other.
Whenever Nancy gets fired up about journalistic integrity 😎.
And there must be a very special spot when Nancy says "ImPorTant." -- SH
You forgot "someone cries", "random celeb story" "random celeb story in New York" "mention the fifth column lads" 😀
"Random celeb story" has gotta go on the bingo card. -- SH
I have a long and fraught relationship with WAPO. For nearly a half century, it’s been my local paper. I was a print subscriber until 2020 and I still have a digital subscription. True story: my wife once had a white bathrobe she ruined over the course of a year when the sleeves became blacked by the newsprint of the Post: this is how much time she spent with the paper every morning. She still faithfully reads the “Print Replica” every morning.
Long before the “Democracy dies in Darkness” era, I began to become disillusioned with the paper as the condescending snarkiness that was usually only found only in the “Style” section of the paper moved into the reporting in other parts of the paper. I now have to scroll through the endless alarmist headlines of the digital edition to get to the “Metro” section that covers local news. Schadenfreude is one of my favorite words and I thoroughly enjoyed listening to your takes on the latest WAPO scandal. Democracy dies in darkness indeed and with spyware. Thanks.
“Democracy dies in darkness indeed and with spyware” ooooompf! Great line!
It's incredibly depressing to me that someone like Felicia Sonmez wields so much power at an institution like the Washingon Post and, by extension, in the broader culture.
I don't think it's unfair, unkind, or hyperbolic to say that given the evidence presented, she seems like a narcissistic sociopath.
I think it's important to state straight up that women, as well as men, can and do fit that description. And that those who do pose serious dangers to others and wreak incredible damage.
In some ways, it's nice to think that their sociopathic narcissism stems from some wellspring of pain that can be filled and addressed. But in my experience with such people, that's highly unlikely. And I think it's important, if sad, to recognize that.
True, we can and should hold out hope for the best. But it's unwise to imagine that positive change is likely to be coming anytime remotely soon - or ever.
Ever consider doing a live show? That would be a blast 😎
Yes! I once told NR, "I had a weird dream that we did a live show dressed as Charlie's Angels," to which she responded, "That wasn't a dream." -- SH
Um, yeah. You've already got flip-able hair, both of you!
Also, jumpsuits.
😂😂
Hi I didn't even know about this podcast until I went looking for any podcasts about the Sonmez dustup. I would just like to say I read Sarah's book and liked it a lot. I didn't even know she had done the series at Jezebel. Off to look at those now. I agree that maybe if people had sex sober there would be less messiness and maybe less grabbing a la scooter incident and more smoothness/finesse/everybody enjoys it. I almost feel like people feel they have to get drunk for some kind of plausible deniability. But getting too drunk can lead to the grabby "scooter incident" type stuff that changes the mood, for one thing. Not to mention the blackout part. Sarah's book really helped educate me on what blackouts are. The best I can remember she said some people are susceptible to blackouts more than others and if you are one of those people, you need to be even more on guard. Anyway will definitely listen to more episodes.
Oh gosh -- it's sad if people are deciding whether to have kids based on (the mostly overblown) worries about climate - or even more sad, about who is President. Nancy is exactly right -- the child you have might well "solve it", make it better, provide numerous alternatives, etc. Our greatest resource is the human brain. If you want kids, you should have them. Arnold Kling recently wrote on his Substack that one of the greatest things in the world is having grandkids and that he didn't know that at age 20. I didn't have kids so won't have grandkids, but I sure do enjoy the kids and grandkids of my friends. Oh, and Sarah's quote from "Cosmos" is great. Thank you; I think I need to listen to this episode again. And - love the episode title, too!
Listening to this podcast is making me smarter. And a better person. I just read that FS was fired from WaPo, a bit of news that would have flown right over my head a week ago.
I know this is a years-old topic now, but I would be curious to hear Smoke 'Em's take on the Covington Catholic thingy at the Lincoln Memorial in January of 2019. Not sure if that's something you'd consider chatting about, if briefly.
A few thoughts from re-listening to this podcast, plus a re-listen to #4 and #5
I quite liked the party analogy -- going to a party vs putting on a party. Never thought about it that way before.
The good show notes continue -- liked the clip of the Cosmos opening, as I haven't seen "Cosmos" since it originally aired. Nice to see that couple of minutes.
You note the book "Going Solo" - I don't remember a reference to it in the podcast. The book looks interesting; perhaps you can spend a few minutes talking about it and why you included it.
Back in 4 & 5 you were just beginning to talk about Depp-Heard and at that time it wasn't known about the ACLU involvement in the WaPo op-ed. So much more known now.
Also back then you got started on an argument about malls, pro and con, and considered that you should do an episode on malls. I think that could be pretty interesting.
Also in #4, Sarah mentioned a mock election poll in 1st grade for Reagan & Mondale, and how she was the only one who chose Mondale. Hah - that brought back memories for me -- 3rd grade, 1960, Kennedy & Nixon. My class was something like 28-7 for Nixon, so the actual result was surprising to me (I knew nothing about the politics/issues at the time.) This was in San Diego; pretty Republican at the time and after all Nixon was from California.
Thank you again for sharing your stories and thoughts.
Wow, a retrospective already! I briefly mentioned “Going Solo” but I only used the author’s name, Eric Klinenberg, who has written extensively about the move toward living alone, fewer children, less marriage -- the march of western affluence. It’s a fascination for me, I read a lot on that subject.
This episode was fantastic. Really appreciated your thoughts on FS. I've been observing her from afar for sometime. She's a mentally unstable person who wields a lot of power and has used it repeatedly to destroy others. It's so frustrating and so sad.
As someone fascinated the last several years with learning things I would have never guessed about other professions, I very much enjoy the inside baseball on journalism, even when I feel I have little I can contribute to the conversation.🙂
Continuing my "Smoke 'em" retrospective ... ;-)
#10 -- "... if there's one link you read in our show notes, read this ..." --
So this is "Who is the Bad Art Friend?", and I can't read more than the first paragraph, because it's tricky to sneak past the New York Times paywall and I'm not going to pay them, but I see it begins with donating a kidney, which immediately makes me think of one of my favorite authors, Virginia Postrel. Maybe y'all can talk a bit more about this in a future podcast.
#10: Sarah is about to travel to the Depp-Heard trial and can't know how she is going to meet Nick Wallis. Fun! ;-)
#11: about the lunar eclipse -- all these fancy names for full moons and eclipses -- astronomy has been a casual hobby since I was a kid, and I think these names are mostly recent fiction. I do remember "Harvest Moon" and "Blood Moon" from decades ago, but not the names they have for every single full moon. In any case, lunar eclipses are always fun to see -- missed this one thanks to clouds. Everybody should have some kind of Moon app on their phone, of course.
#11: the book "Helter Skelter" -- read that when it came out. I found it great back then. Apparently somebody recently wrote a book that refutes or disputes some of Helter Skelter? Now can't find the link to this new book. Looking forward to the Book and Music clubs.
#11: Cheryl Strayed: a good friend recommended her book "Wild" years ago -- it was great. You should have her on the podcast.
I am enjoying listening to episodes from a few weeks ago -- a) just as good the second time around, b) I pick up things I missed or glossed over before, and c) it's a bit of time traveling. Recommended.
This was a GREAT episode. Kudos to both of you. I find that I disagree with Nancy a lot -- which, as you always hasten to say, is a good/healthy thing! -- and this episode was no exception, so I wanted to ask about something Nancy said (and in fact repeated for emphasis--it's at the 1:28:00 mark) in this episode: "We make our worlds." I don't want to attack a straw man, so can you elaborate on what you meant by that? Thanks and keep up the great work!