What can music teach us about native history? Are land acknowledgements useful? How to share culture without stepping on traditions? Also: In the future, will we all be influencers?
Thanks for this. I’ve been curious about Nancy’s view of land acknowledgments and I found the discussion interesting.
I do worry that we (meaning myself included) might occasionally be too reflexively cynical in our reactions to anything that originates on the social justice left. I’ll explain what I mean.
I had my first and only experience with land acknowledgments recently when I was on a walk with my dog in a nature preserve. At the end of the trail there’s a kiosk with a placard detailing the natural features of the region. Flora, fauna etc. And in addition to the facts about eagles and whitetail deer there was a land acknowledgment. I didn’t take a photo and therefore I can’t quote it. But I do remember the words “ancestral home”.
And I also remember standing there, on a wooded hillside overlooking the river that runs from the mountains to the Atlantic, and finding it incredibly moving. There had been people here, looking at that same view for many, many years before my ancestors even knew it existed. I don’t know. It seems worth meditating on.
Cultural appropriation is a stupid term and should be tossed out. Sharing with and learning from other cultures is very important for peace and good food ;) However I differentiate between general culture and “religious” customs or items. I would avoid co-opting clothes etc that are sacred to a culture just out of respect. I don’t know where headdresses fall in those categories but I suspect closer to religious. In other words bring on the sombreros but maybe don’t go as the “sexy” Pope for Halloween. Just my .02
My goodness, this podcast really hit a lot of hot buttons! And I remember a few weeks ago you talked about topics you would not get into. ...
What does "land acknowledgment" really mean? I think what people these days mean is "who had this land before the white Europeans showed up and stole it". But what they don't want to talk about is what happened before that, which is what we really don't know well. It's likely that there was more than one wave of immigration of humans from Asia to North America. We really don't know, and can only guess. We occasionally discover or uncover skeletons or other evidence that leads us to further discovery. It's likely that some of those waves predate what we could call the "American Indian" settling of the continent. Occasionally old skeletons will be unearthed, and so various tribes might claim ownership of those, but the carbon-dating of these is so old that you really can't be sure. Once you get to 5,000, 10,000, 15,000 years old, you really don't know, you are just guessing. But the researchers will often yield to the "politically correct" interpretation. (read up on the "Kennewick Man" for example).
I've spent a lot of time over the years visiting friends on Vancouver Island, in British Columbia, in Canada. In Canada, tribes are referred to as "First Nations". That term itself is a bit pretentious, but, okay, not bad. These tribes were separate, not united -- they conducted wars against each other, took slaves, etc. It's quite a history. They were NOT all one happy family. This is certainly true in the USA territory as well.
I am NOT saying we treated the Indians well; we most emphatically did not. Such a horrible, mixed history, and -- the Chinese who came here and helped build the railroads -- we could have done way better -- the Japanese -- WW2 internment camps -- yikes! -- the Irish, the Italians, etc. My grandparents on both sides were from Scotland and Denmark and were well regarded, as far as I can tell, so I guess my ancestors were lucky.
In Columbus, Ohio where I live -- there were lots of German immigrants, (who made beer! and more...) but after WW1, all the local German-related names were changed to something else -- usually changed back later on. Now, one of the most desirable locations to live in Columbus is called "German Village", because it's where most of the Germans settled when they came here.
In #24, Sarah says "... these start with a good impulse ..." (timestamp about 33:20). This is so true -- so many of the topics you end up talking about -- let's do diversity better, let's do Title 9 better. But as you later say -- what does this accomplish, what happens next. The pendulum swings wide, and then the opposite happens. We end up condemning folks who didn't know what was happening (Blackout). Let's have more understanding, more forgiveness, more appreciation of what can happen to people.
I'm getting long on this email, but want to also mention that Sarah's podcast with Meghan Daum is terrific and speaks to many of the topics that come up here on "Smoke 'Em". Highly recommended, I so enjoyed this conversation this morning.
And -- finally -- on this podcast Sarah talked about how you are trying to do twice a week but the schedule can be difficult to work out. This is my favorite podcast and I'm going to listen to every one -- you don't need so much to keep to a regular schedule because I'm already going to listen to all of them.
Didn’t think I’d enjoy this episode as much as I did! I am so ignorant on the subject of native people in America. Nancy could you start a list of books you recommend on the subject?
Also- Interesting discussion on the land acknowledgments. I was always cynical about them bc whenever I’ve seen it it’s always coupled with naming pronouns and denouncing capitalism, etc.. On its own I think it could be good! But unfortunately I think it just gets wrapped up in with all the other stuff.
I left Portland last summer, and I don’t think organizations do land acknowledgments over Zoom (good god I hope not), but they were still going strong right before covid.
I really enjoyed listening to this; it seemed like you were both trying to flesh out how you felt about cultural appropriation, and didn’t hold fast to either side. I definitely fall more on the “people should cook and wear whatever they want” side, although the sweat lodge event sounded more than a little tone deaf. Fashion is a young person’s game, and they’ll have plenty of time later to regret their dreadlocks or headdresses without being actively shamed. Or maybe they never will, and honestly I’m ok with that.
I have visceral opinions about “food appropriation”, which was a big talking point in Portland around 2017. The whole thing (originally stemming from anger at two white women opening a Mexican food cart) was so devoid of any nuance or logic that it infuriated me.
I agree with that. It was also given to you as an option, to reflect in your own way. Maybe people feel that during public land acknowledgments, I don't know. Thanks for listening!
I was so happy Nancy acknowledged the importance Indians place on service. They have a beautiful monument at the National Museum of the American Indian dedicated to veterans. It is powerful.
Oh man, Reservation Dogs is just the best. Everything about it is excellent, but most of all, that cast! Those kids! I could go on and on, but just watch it. Nancy, you aren't wrong, anyone who takes the time to watch this show is gonna love it. And my mom always told me I was 1/16 Cherokee, so I should know. (Ancestry.com put an end to that family legend.)
Hey Leah - I don't really have a list of books offhand! I do recommend Ken Kesey's "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest," which is narrated by the Chief (my late father-in-law played the role in the movie, and Tim, my daughter's dad, reprised the role on Broadway, in which, again, he is the narrator). I will totally recommend watching "Reservation Dogs," as well as some of the other links to Native works in the show notes. Here's a pic of Tim in "Cuckoo's Nest"! https://www.playbill.com/gallery/one-flew-over-the-cuckoos-nest-on-broadway-com-5055#carousel-cell10169595
Before playing the episode, I thought I’d enhance my enjoyment by looking at the show notes first. Clicked on the link about the futility of land acknowledgments-- (strongly agree)
The entire Pulp Fiction soundtrack is fantastic but Rumble is what I think of as THE Pulp Fiction song. Will try to find time to watch both the documentary and Reservation Dogs.
I cannot wait to use the phrase “white people’s shit” next time woke friends bring up land acknowledgments. Question Nancy: what do/did you and/or your daughter and/or your late ex think of the renaming of sports teams issue particularly maybe in regards to the Washington football team? As far as I know, I have no American Indian DNA, so maybe my opinion is of no value, but I always thought that it seemed Indians would rather US Democratic Senators like Harry Reid throw their political weight around about stopping the selling off of Indian land, and actually improving their lives with benefits ranging from better healthcare and scholarships than the name of a damn sports team. Change the name of the team if you must, but how about some substantive policies and programs that actually help.
The characterization of sweat lodge appropriation as bad medicine and the comparison of non-Catholics building a Catholic Church and having communion brought to mind the argument over yoga as cultural appropriation. It occurred to me a year ago, when one particular very woke acquaintance of mine was loudly checking every activist cause box - that she was also a yoga teacher and she could herself be committing the sin of cultural appropriation. I mean really - if there is a religious practice that has been commoditized it’s yoga, which is ironic given given it’s extreme popularity with the progressive community. I’m not judging Sarah - I know you’re a fan of yoga. The sweat lodge discussion just reminded me of it.
Big fan of Thor: Ragnarok. It’s superb American superhero movie fun all the way through. I discovered Waititi though when he did the What We do in the Shadows movie. TV is also a lot of fun.
Trailed is now next in my reading list. And I’m currently listening to the Say Nothing audiobook. Great writing and yeah, I’m enjoying that it is read by an Irishman.
Before I forget - Nancy, your daughter’s short film was beautiful. Well crafted and touching homage to her family. I think I’ll watch it again before I go to bed.
Another great episode! and I saw that Midnight Special. yes old show, but great show, classic with Wolf-man Jack. I believe it was Leon Redbone’s band. Reservation Dogs is funny, sad and all in all great! Gonna go watch Rumble !
Thanks for this. I’ve been curious about Nancy’s view of land acknowledgments and I found the discussion interesting.
I do worry that we (meaning myself included) might occasionally be too reflexively cynical in our reactions to anything that originates on the social justice left. I’ll explain what I mean.
I had my first and only experience with land acknowledgments recently when I was on a walk with my dog in a nature preserve. At the end of the trail there’s a kiosk with a placard detailing the natural features of the region. Flora, fauna etc. And in addition to the facts about eagles and whitetail deer there was a land acknowledgment. I didn’t take a photo and therefore I can’t quote it. But I do remember the words “ancestral home”.
And I also remember standing there, on a wooded hillside overlooking the river that runs from the mountains to the Atlantic, and finding it incredibly moving. There had been people here, looking at that same view for many, many years before my ancestors even knew it existed. I don’t know. It seems worth meditating on.
Great podcast.
I always go into the grocery store when I see the fire truck parked outside 🤤
Cultural appropriation is a stupid term and should be tossed out. Sharing with and learning from other cultures is very important for peace and good food ;) However I differentiate between general culture and “religious” customs or items. I would avoid co-opting clothes etc that are sacred to a culture just out of respect. I don’t know where headdresses fall in those categories but I suspect closer to religious. In other words bring on the sombreros but maybe don’t go as the “sexy” Pope for Halloween. Just my .02
My goodness, this podcast really hit a lot of hot buttons! And I remember a few weeks ago you talked about topics you would not get into. ...
What does "land acknowledgment" really mean? I think what people these days mean is "who had this land before the white Europeans showed up and stole it". But what they don't want to talk about is what happened before that, which is what we really don't know well. It's likely that there was more than one wave of immigration of humans from Asia to North America. We really don't know, and can only guess. We occasionally discover or uncover skeletons or other evidence that leads us to further discovery. It's likely that some of those waves predate what we could call the "American Indian" settling of the continent. Occasionally old skeletons will be unearthed, and so various tribes might claim ownership of those, but the carbon-dating of these is so old that you really can't be sure. Once you get to 5,000, 10,000, 15,000 years old, you really don't know, you are just guessing. But the researchers will often yield to the "politically correct" interpretation. (read up on the "Kennewick Man" for example).
I've spent a lot of time over the years visiting friends on Vancouver Island, in British Columbia, in Canada. In Canada, tribes are referred to as "First Nations". That term itself is a bit pretentious, but, okay, not bad. These tribes were separate, not united -- they conducted wars against each other, took slaves, etc. It's quite a history. They were NOT all one happy family. This is certainly true in the USA territory as well.
I am NOT saying we treated the Indians well; we most emphatically did not. Such a horrible, mixed history, and -- the Chinese who came here and helped build the railroads -- we could have done way better -- the Japanese -- WW2 internment camps -- yikes! -- the Irish, the Italians, etc. My grandparents on both sides were from Scotland and Denmark and were well regarded, as far as I can tell, so I guess my ancestors were lucky.
In Columbus, Ohio where I live -- there were lots of German immigrants, (who made beer! and more...) but after WW1, all the local German-related names were changed to something else -- usually changed back later on. Now, one of the most desirable locations to live in Columbus is called "German Village", because it's where most of the Germans settled when they came here.
In #24, Sarah says "... these start with a good impulse ..." (timestamp about 33:20). This is so true -- so many of the topics you end up talking about -- let's do diversity better, let's do Title 9 better. But as you later say -- what does this accomplish, what happens next. The pendulum swings wide, and then the opposite happens. We end up condemning folks who didn't know what was happening (Blackout). Let's have more understanding, more forgiveness, more appreciation of what can happen to people.
I'm getting long on this email, but want to also mention that Sarah's podcast with Meghan Daum is terrific and speaks to many of the topics that come up here on "Smoke 'Em". Highly recommended, I so enjoyed this conversation this morning.
And -- finally -- on this podcast Sarah talked about how you are trying to do twice a week but the schedule can be difficult to work out. This is my favorite podcast and I'm going to listen to every one -- you don't need so much to keep to a regular schedule because I'm already going to listen to all of them.
Didn’t think I’d enjoy this episode as much as I did! I am so ignorant on the subject of native people in America. Nancy could you start a list of books you recommend on the subject?
Also- Interesting discussion on the land acknowledgments. I was always cynical about them bc whenever I’ve seen it it’s always coupled with naming pronouns and denouncing capitalism, etc.. On its own I think it could be good! But unfortunately I think it just gets wrapped up in with all the other stuff.
I left Portland last summer, and I don’t think organizations do land acknowledgments over Zoom (good god I hope not), but they were still going strong right before covid.
I really enjoyed listening to this; it seemed like you were both trying to flesh out how you felt about cultural appropriation, and didn’t hold fast to either side. I definitely fall more on the “people should cook and wear whatever they want” side, although the sweat lodge event sounded more than a little tone deaf. Fashion is a young person’s game, and they’ll have plenty of time later to regret their dreadlocks or headdresses without being actively shamed. Or maybe they never will, and honestly I’m ok with that.
I have visceral opinions about “food appropriation”, which was a big talking point in Portland around 2017. The whole thing (originally stemming from anger at two white women opening a Mexican food cart) was so devoid of any nuance or logic that it infuriated me.
I’ve only read the intro paragraph and already agreeing that firemen are hot. As are firewomen.😃
Hey Natalie, yes, I know all about the two girls making tortillas and then getting death threats, and have written about it more than once, most recently here. Thanks for listening! https://reason.com/2021/03/22/the-dream-of-the-90s-died-in-portland/
I agree with that. It was also given to you as an option, to reflect in your own way. Maybe people feel that during public land acknowledgments, I don't know. Thanks for listening!
I was so happy Nancy acknowledged the importance Indians place on service. They have a beautiful monument at the National Museum of the American Indian dedicated to veterans. It is powerful.
Great conversation, as always.
https://americanindian.si.edu/visit/washington/nnavm
Oh man, Reservation Dogs is just the best. Everything about it is excellent, but most of all, that cast! Those kids! I could go on and on, but just watch it. Nancy, you aren't wrong, anyone who takes the time to watch this show is gonna love it. And my mom always told me I was 1/16 Cherokee, so I should know. (Ancestry.com put an end to that family legend.)
Hey Leah - I don't really have a list of books offhand! I do recommend Ken Kesey's "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest," which is narrated by the Chief (my late father-in-law played the role in the movie, and Tim, my daughter's dad, reprised the role on Broadway, in which, again, he is the narrator). I will totally recommend watching "Reservation Dogs," as well as some of the other links to Native works in the show notes. Here's a pic of Tim in "Cuckoo's Nest"! https://www.playbill.com/gallery/one-flew-over-the-cuckoos-nest-on-broadway-com-5055#carousel-cell10169595
Before playing the episode, I thought I’d enhance my enjoyment by looking at the show notes first. Clicked on the link about the futility of land acknowledgments-- (strongly agree)
https://theconversation.com/land-acknowledgments-meant-to-honor-indigenous-people-too-often-do-the-opposite-erasing-american-indians-and-sanitizing-history-instead-163787
--only to find the REAL solution is to hand over the National Parks to their original owners. Really? Now I’m afraid to listen to the episode
Haha, this made me laugh out loud. I gots TONS of work for you, some of it here, nancyromm.com and here, nancyrommelmann.substack.com and here palomamedia.com
The entire Pulp Fiction soundtrack is fantastic but Rumble is what I think of as THE Pulp Fiction song. Will try to find time to watch both the documentary and Reservation Dogs.
I cannot wait to use the phrase “white people’s shit” next time woke friends bring up land acknowledgments. Question Nancy: what do/did you and/or your daughter and/or your late ex think of the renaming of sports teams issue particularly maybe in regards to the Washington football team? As far as I know, I have no American Indian DNA, so maybe my opinion is of no value, but I always thought that it seemed Indians would rather US Democratic Senators like Harry Reid throw their political weight around about stopping the selling off of Indian land, and actually improving their lives with benefits ranging from better healthcare and scholarships than the name of a damn sports team. Change the name of the team if you must, but how about some substantive policies and programs that actually help.
The characterization of sweat lodge appropriation as bad medicine and the comparison of non-Catholics building a Catholic Church and having communion brought to mind the argument over yoga as cultural appropriation. It occurred to me a year ago, when one particular very woke acquaintance of mine was loudly checking every activist cause box - that she was also a yoga teacher and she could herself be committing the sin of cultural appropriation. I mean really - if there is a religious practice that has been commoditized it’s yoga, which is ironic given given it’s extreme popularity with the progressive community. I’m not judging Sarah - I know you’re a fan of yoga. The sweat lodge discussion just reminded me of it.
Big fan of Thor: Ragnarok. It’s superb American superhero movie fun all the way through. I discovered Waititi though when he did the What We do in the Shadows movie. TV is also a lot of fun.
Trailed is now next in my reading list. And I’m currently listening to the Say Nothing audiobook. Great writing and yeah, I’m enjoying that it is read by an Irishman.
Before I forget - Nancy, your daughter’s short film was beautiful. Well crafted and touching homage to her family. I think I’ll watch it again before I go to bed.
Cheers ladies!
Another great episode! and I saw that Midnight Special. yes old show, but great show, classic with Wolf-man Jack. I believe it was Leon Redbone’s band. Reservation Dogs is funny, sad and all in all great! Gonna go watch Rumble !
Thanks Ladies awesome!