How much should we blame Russian interference for the Women's March implosion? Should we end sex segregation in sports? We talk biological difference, ideological in-fighting, and (obviously) breasts
2. I despise Linda Sarsour with a fiery passion. I think she truly believed what she is saying but I also think she is a hate monger. I also think that she is now the darling of the anti Zionist Jewish left so she really thinks she is in the right. I also completely agree with Sara Haider's view of her. I think there are two kinds of Muslim feminists. Well 3. Some are women who happen to be Muslim. Some are women who see sexism in their religious world and in society in general and work to end sexism in their religious communities and American society in general. Then there is the third, which views Islam as the proper way, and view feminism and as part of Islam. Which is fine on a personal level but it means that the way women are supposed to be treated in the Quran is how women should be treated. From everything I have read about Sarsour, she is the third kind of feminist. Which I think isn' t really feminism. Which I believe has been Sarah Haidar's view.
3. I love Helen Pluckrose's article about no longer being a feminist. I am kind of with her.
4. The problem with intersectionality is this. What of a Muslim women who views hijab as oppressive versus one who views it as liberatory? Who is more right? What of an Iraqi Jew who would not be alive were it npt for Israel versus a Palestinian Christian who thinks it is the worst thing? Or a poor black woman who wants a female only space versus a black trans woman who feels unsafe in male spaces? I think intersectionality as explained by Crenshaw makes sense. And being aware that the way we look and how much money we come from affects how we perceive the world and how the world perceives us - that is important. But people from the same background may have different views. It does not work large scale.
5. If the white women founded the women's march, how did they get axed? Also. Something I do not understand. Given that most women in this country are white, wouldn't it make sense for white women to be centered? Is that not part of the problem? Like on the one hand. Most women are white. By a large margin. On the other hand, it does not feel.good when your problems are not acknowledged.
6. I love how the Atlantic article says how Riverdale Country is on the Bronx. Given how fucking wealthy that school is, the fact that it is in the Bronx is pointless. As if implying these are poor children. Also. I cannot overstate how much I hate this idea that Gen Z does not with the binaries. Um. How is becoming NB not just reinforcing the binaries? Inam not a girly girl therefore Inam not a girl.
7. FFS. Most boys are stronger than most girls. No one has ever said it was true for all girls.
I was a figure skater through my entire childhood (I only stopped after leaving for college), and it absolutely boggles my mind that people think there aren’t physical differences between boys and girls. Nationally ranked female skaters are almost all *tiny* - they’re all around 100 lbs, maybe a few inches over five feet. They have to be tiny if they expect to carry themselves when they jump. Male skaters, on the other hand, while probably shorter than the average guy, are both taller and heavier. But here’s the thing - that extra weight is muscle, allowing them to skate stronger and jump higher. Boys gain muscle during puberty; girls gain curves. Their bodies are fundamentally different.
Sep 23, 2022·edited Sep 23, 2022Liked by Smoke 'Em If You Got 'Em
There was some serious Diet Coke shaming in this episode that I did not appreciate.
However! Thanks for talking about the Linda Sarsour NYT piece. It was a mini breaking point for me. The rehabilitation is so depressing. I’m 100% with Nancy on this. I was wondering the whole time, why now? the piece even admits they couldn’t verify that the few tweets made a difference to the movement. I’m probably going to sound like a crazy person but it feels like the Progressive Left is trying to chip away at any Jewish credibility. But it also could’ve been more about stirring up Russia-bot panic ahead of the midterms.
Not sure if you saw but the other day Rashida Tlaib said “I want you all to know that among progressives it has become clear that you cannot claim to hold progressive values yet back Israel’s apartheid government, and we will continue to push back and not accept this idea that you are progressive except for Philistine any longer”
Taib sent ouf Happy Passover wishes a few years ago. With loaves of bread. She clearly had soo much contact with Jews.
But of course. Religious anti Zionist Jews and Muslims can be in progressive spaces. And how does that work with the whole LGB thing?
I 100% believe you can be anti Zionist and not anti Semitic. But I also think that you can easily hide anti semitism behind anti Zionism. Which I 100% think is what Sarsour is doing. I am not sure about Tahib
Absolutely agree with you, especially that last paragraph. Tlaib is one of the worst offenders of trafficking in antisemitic tropes. I’ve tried to be empathetic and give her the benefit of the doubt but it’s doing real damage to American Jews and I feel bad for the younger generations who don’t feel there’s a place for them in progressive politics.
Check out this video of Rashida linking Gaza to Detroit and saying to “look behind the curtain” for the people making the money.
The squad, including Tlaib, are constantly linking US military aid to Israel to lack of healthcare and free education in America, as if saying, look at what we could have if these Jews would stop taking our money.
I’m not an alarmist on this stuff, it’s just undeniable antisemitism
5 drinks: Water, Coffee, flavored seltzer soda, Dr Pepper when I eat at restaurants that carry it, and if I’m in a bar environment seltzer water with a splash of cranberry juice and a lime. I do put creamer in my coffee and oat milk in my cereal, but they don’t really count.
It's been a while since I took a gender studies course, but yes there is a thing called difference feminism. Difference feminism is in contrast to be equality based feminism. Equality based feminism would say the inherent differences between men and woman are de minims and if you remove the barriers both culturally and legally men and women would have about the same outcomes. Difference feminism posits that men and women are inherently different, and there is a hierarchy of of value that favors men over women but both should have equal value as people.
These are of course separate from the other feminisms including but not limited to Radical feminism, Psychoanalytic feminism, lesbian/queer/trans feminism, intersectional/race based feminism, Marxist/class feminism, Environmental feminism, and cyborg feminism.
I haven't even started listening to this episode yet, but I had watched episode 9 of "Reservation Dogs" yesterday and thought the spirit girl was amazing, and, what a great outfit, too. And now really embarrassed to admit I didn't realize that was Tafv until hours later. So cool. I knew that she had an appearance coming up late in the season, but I didn't know it was this. She looks terrific; Nancy you can be proud.
And oh my, the episode notes are AWESOME yet again.
Badminton feels like a neglected sport -- both fast and slow at the same time. That shuttlecock slows down so quickly! I have to count this as a sport I wish I'd played more often.
I went to the Women's March in D.C, the day after Trump's inauguration. Our reason for going was that we wanted to demonstrate that there were a lot of us who didn't vote for him and we weren't going anywhere. I hate the electoral college system and don't think it's right that someone can win an election by millions of votes and yet still not become president.
Anyway, there were so many speakers! When Linda Sarsour came out to talk, we sat down, a long with some nice people from West Virgina. We were grumbling that we didn't want to hear rants about Palestine. It was really annoying. Other than her and a few others, it really was a beautiful experience.
I think the whole purpose of that absurd story on athletics is to push the trans agenda. Trans women are the only people who benefit from trying to blur these sex based categories. I am beginning to think that the people who think males don't have athletic advantages over females are just heads in jars. The premise of that article is ludicrous.
And finally: the Ally McBeal bathroom!! I shuddered every time there was a scene in there!!
I agree about the athletics story - to answer the "Why this story now?" rhetorical question that the hosts were asking, this story has everything to do with promoting the idea that trans people in sports should be able to compete according to their chosen sex rather than their natal one, and is trying to brush aside the idea that there's any physical advantage there. That imperative, if it's your paramount concern that trumps all other considerations, is going to bring up some very weird solutions, one of which might be to get rid of separate womens' sports entirely.
It's ironic, too, because I still remember when feminism had a strong separatist streak, to the point that back in the 1990s, there was a lot of talk about girls' schools and womens college being a good thing for women (remember the whole Mills College blowup), and even some folks promoting the idea of single-sex classrooms for subjects like math that would supposedly benefit women. Now I didn't support that kind of thing back then, either, as it was based on a very essentialist view of women, viewing them as eternal victims. who can't compete with men on any subject that requres the use of logic. (Of course, I feel differently about women's sports, as that's based on measurable physical differences.) But it just amazes me how much the women's movement has gone from one extreme to another without ever having even passed through a sensible position.
That Colacello interview was fantastic! Way back in the early 80’s, when I was just going into high school, I was a regular Interview reader. This was in Alabama so I had to search for copies and then subscribed. I hadn’t thought about Colacello for years! I bought his book on Andy Warhol right after the interview.
This is another great episode -- it started up differently from the others -- more "energy", or, more "something", I'm not sure. Just different. Did anyone else think that?
Five Liquids -- never thought about this before. Okay:
1) Plain water, sometimes with ice. NO flavors ever, NO carbonation, right from the tap, maybe filtered.
2) Coffee, to which I add
3) Heavy Whipping Cream (since I've done this for decades, Half and Half now seems incredibly thin)
4) Wine, mostly red, also white and sparkling (don't understand my friends who don't like sparkling wine)
5) Beer, I like the dark, but not always
6) The occasional bourbon/whiskey, but also those sweet liqueurs can be tempting.
Absolutely no soft drinks; if I'm stuck someplace without water, I'l go for unsweetened iced tea
I second Nancy's comment on indecision at restaurants. I can decide in 10-30 seconds 99% of the time.
I don't understand trying to equate men and women's athletic performances - there are so many differences. Once those hormones start taking effect, it's off to the races and no looking back. I ran cross country and track in high school, back in the dark ages, aka the 60s, and girls back then had between few and no opportunities for athletic advancement. Title IX changed that, thank goodness. There are two huge bell curves describing athletic performance between male and female -- there is plenty of overlap, but not at the extremes. In track and field, it averages about 10%; a bit less for the sprinting events, and sometimes for those ultra long distance events like 50+ miles. Otherwise, it's undeniable. I love that the kids and grandkids of my friends (no kids of my own) have such great opportunities to experience and excel at the athletic events of their choosing. Being able to run cross country and track in high school for me turned out to be a life changing event and I hope every kid has a chance at that.
Anybody who has run an organized running event has perhaps seen an "age graded performance" number, sometimes expressed as a percentage. I've spent plenty of time perusing and analyzing that data. It takes the results of, by now, many hundreds of thousands, likely millions, of runner's finishing times, along with age and gender. It lets you compare your time across years of competition. I've quite a bit of data over the years and find the comparisons to be pretty accurate. I like that it shows what I'm doing today for races matches pretty well, age-adjusted, with what I could do back in my 20s.
1. I have been to Omega. Funny.
2. I despise Linda Sarsour with a fiery passion. I think she truly believed what she is saying but I also think she is a hate monger. I also think that she is now the darling of the anti Zionist Jewish left so she really thinks she is in the right. I also completely agree with Sara Haider's view of her. I think there are two kinds of Muslim feminists. Well 3. Some are women who happen to be Muslim. Some are women who see sexism in their religious world and in society in general and work to end sexism in their religious communities and American society in general. Then there is the third, which views Islam as the proper way, and view feminism and as part of Islam. Which is fine on a personal level but it means that the way women are supposed to be treated in the Quran is how women should be treated. From everything I have read about Sarsour, she is the third kind of feminist. Which I think isn' t really feminism. Which I believe has been Sarah Haidar's view.
3. I love Helen Pluckrose's article about no longer being a feminist. I am kind of with her.
4. The problem with intersectionality is this. What of a Muslim women who views hijab as oppressive versus one who views it as liberatory? Who is more right? What of an Iraqi Jew who would not be alive were it npt for Israel versus a Palestinian Christian who thinks it is the worst thing? Or a poor black woman who wants a female only space versus a black trans woman who feels unsafe in male spaces? I think intersectionality as explained by Crenshaw makes sense. And being aware that the way we look and how much money we come from affects how we perceive the world and how the world perceives us - that is important. But people from the same background may have different views. It does not work large scale.
5. If the white women founded the women's march, how did they get axed? Also. Something I do not understand. Given that most women in this country are white, wouldn't it make sense for white women to be centered? Is that not part of the problem? Like on the one hand. Most women are white. By a large margin. On the other hand, it does not feel.good when your problems are not acknowledged.
6. I love how the Atlantic article says how Riverdale Country is on the Bronx. Given how fucking wealthy that school is, the fact that it is in the Bronx is pointless. As if implying these are poor children. Also. I cannot overstate how much I hate this idea that Gen Z does not with the binaries. Um. How is becoming NB not just reinforcing the binaries? Inam not a girly girl therefore Inam not a girl.
7. FFS. Most boys are stronger than most girls. No one has ever said it was true for all girls.
Yes to your point about non-binary! It reinforces the binary to abandon one's sex. Yes yes yes!
I was a figure skater through my entire childhood (I only stopped after leaving for college), and it absolutely boggles my mind that people think there aren’t physical differences between boys and girls. Nationally ranked female skaters are almost all *tiny* - they’re all around 100 lbs, maybe a few inches over five feet. They have to be tiny if they expect to carry themselves when they jump. Male skaters, on the other hand, while probably shorter than the average guy, are both taller and heavier. But here’s the thing - that extra weight is muscle, allowing them to skate stronger and jump higher. Boys gain muscle during puberty; girls gain curves. Their bodies are fundamentally different.
There was some serious Diet Coke shaming in this episode that I did not appreciate.
However! Thanks for talking about the Linda Sarsour NYT piece. It was a mini breaking point for me. The rehabilitation is so depressing. I’m 100% with Nancy on this. I was wondering the whole time, why now? the piece even admits they couldn’t verify that the few tweets made a difference to the movement. I’m probably going to sound like a crazy person but it feels like the Progressive Left is trying to chip away at any Jewish credibility. But it also could’ve been more about stirring up Russia-bot panic ahead of the midterms.
Not sure if you saw but the other day Rashida Tlaib said “I want you all to know that among progressives it has become clear that you cannot claim to hold progressive values yet back Israel’s apartheid government, and we will continue to push back and not accept this idea that you are progressive except for Philistine any longer”
https://thehill.com/homenews/house/3654510-house-democrat-slams-tlaib-for-antisemitic-remarks-on-israel/amp/
Just feels like this is all a part of a whole
Taib sent ouf Happy Passover wishes a few years ago. With loaves of bread. She clearly had soo much contact with Jews.
But of course. Religious anti Zionist Jews and Muslims can be in progressive spaces. And how does that work with the whole LGB thing?
I 100% believe you can be anti Zionist and not anti Semitic. But I also think that you can easily hide anti semitism behind anti Zionism. Which I 100% think is what Sarsour is doing. I am not sure about Tahib
Absolutely agree with you, especially that last paragraph. Tlaib is one of the worst offenders of trafficking in antisemitic tropes. I’ve tried to be empathetic and give her the benefit of the doubt but it’s doing real damage to American Jews and I feel bad for the younger generations who don’t feel there’s a place for them in progressive politics.
Check out this video of Rashida linking Gaza to Detroit and saying to “look behind the curtain” for the people making the money.
It’s breathtaking https://twitter.com/JGreenblattADL/status/1422576557839761413
The squad, including Tlaib, are constantly linking US military aid to Israel to lack of healthcare and free education in America, as if saying, look at what we could have if these Jews would stop taking our money.
I’m not an alarmist on this stuff, it’s just undeniable antisemitism
Good God, she's the worst. She's using some weird Wizard of Oz/Illuminati reference about...who? The board of Pfizer? Ugh.
“From Gaza to Detroit” “the people behind the curtain” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_antisemitism
All the lessons of 20th century antisemitism are being forgotten. It's disgusting.
I know I sound like a crazy person but I also feel some weird shit going on on the left
Also! How are we feeling about Coke Zero? Because that's my poison. 😆
😂
I'm assuming it was leavened? Maybe it was a really sophisticated burn?
5 drinks: Water, Coffee, flavored seltzer soda, Dr Pepper when I eat at restaurants that carry it, and if I’m in a bar environment seltzer water with a splash of cranberry juice and a lime. I do put creamer in my coffee and oat milk in my cereal, but they don’t really count.
On this Women's March story, I feel like Nancy is looking for wheels within wheels where there probably aren't any.
I do love breasts though, we're simpatico on that.
I think she's right, though. It's an out of date piece during a mid term election. Evidence of poor editorial standards.
And yes breasts are a wonder. 😘
It's been a while since I took a gender studies course, but yes there is a thing called difference feminism. Difference feminism is in contrast to be equality based feminism. Equality based feminism would say the inherent differences between men and woman are de minims and if you remove the barriers both culturally and legally men and women would have about the same outcomes. Difference feminism posits that men and women are inherently different, and there is a hierarchy of of value that favors men over women but both should have equal value as people.
These are of course separate from the other feminisms including but not limited to Radical feminism, Psychoanalytic feminism, lesbian/queer/trans feminism, intersectional/race based feminism, Marxist/class feminism, Environmental feminism, and cyborg feminism.
If there's Cylon feminism, I call Starbuck...
There was a subset of academics dedicated to "Buffy Studies," so I wouldn't be shocked
I haven't even started listening to this episode yet, but I had watched episode 9 of "Reservation Dogs" yesterday and thought the spirit girl was amazing, and, what a great outfit, too. And now really embarrassed to admit I didn't realize that was Tafv until hours later. So cool. I knew that she had an appearance coming up late in the season, but I didn't know it was this. She looks terrific; Nancy you can be proud.
And oh my, the episode notes are AWESOME yet again.
Saw the clip of Rez Dogs and LOVED the outfit!
Water coffee tea wine milk now if I could simplify my wardrobe…
Loved Crying in H Mart…
I could always beat my sons and husband at Badminton
Badminton feels like a neglected sport -- both fast and slow at the same time. That shuttlecock slows down so quickly! I have to count this as a sport I wish I'd played more often.
I went to the Women's March in D.C, the day after Trump's inauguration. Our reason for going was that we wanted to demonstrate that there were a lot of us who didn't vote for him and we weren't going anywhere. I hate the electoral college system and don't think it's right that someone can win an election by millions of votes and yet still not become president.
Anyway, there were so many speakers! When Linda Sarsour came out to talk, we sat down, a long with some nice people from West Virgina. We were grumbling that we didn't want to hear rants about Palestine. It was really annoying. Other than her and a few others, it really was a beautiful experience.
I think the whole purpose of that absurd story on athletics is to push the trans agenda. Trans women are the only people who benefit from trying to blur these sex based categories. I am beginning to think that the people who think males don't have athletic advantages over females are just heads in jars. The premise of that article is ludicrous.
And finally: the Ally McBeal bathroom!! I shuddered every time there was a scene in there!!
I agree about the athletics story - to answer the "Why this story now?" rhetorical question that the hosts were asking, this story has everything to do with promoting the idea that trans people in sports should be able to compete according to their chosen sex rather than their natal one, and is trying to brush aside the idea that there's any physical advantage there. That imperative, if it's your paramount concern that trumps all other considerations, is going to bring up some very weird solutions, one of which might be to get rid of separate womens' sports entirely.
It's ironic, too, because I still remember when feminism had a strong separatist streak, to the point that back in the 1990s, there was a lot of talk about girls' schools and womens college being a good thing for women (remember the whole Mills College blowup), and even some folks promoting the idea of single-sex classrooms for subjects like math that would supposedly benefit women. Now I didn't support that kind of thing back then, either, as it was based on a very essentialist view of women, viewing them as eternal victims. who can't compete with men on any subject that requres the use of logic. (Of course, I feel differently about women's sports, as that's based on measurable physical differences.) But it just amazes me how much the women's movement has gone from one extreme to another without ever having even passed through a sensible position.
That Colacello interview was fantastic! Way back in the early 80’s, when I was just going into high school, I was a regular Interview reader. This was in Alabama so I had to search for copies and then subscribed. I hadn’t thought about Colacello for years! I bought his book on Andy Warhol right after the interview.
Agree. It was like hearing history speak.
OMG, your daughter is so like you, Nancy, the voice and expressions! Well done, mom, and well done Tafv!
internecine: "Sounds like
in·tr·neh·seen" (emphasis on the "neh") 😉 (Had to look it up.) Should we add it to the Bingo card?
Strangely happy to hear Sarah represent with ginger beer, even though I have struggled to find a favorite brand since Stewart’s stopped making it
This is another great episode -- it started up differently from the others -- more "energy", or, more "something", I'm not sure. Just different. Did anyone else think that?
Five Liquids -- never thought about this before. Okay:
1) Plain water, sometimes with ice. NO flavors ever, NO carbonation, right from the tap, maybe filtered.
2) Coffee, to which I add
3) Heavy Whipping Cream (since I've done this for decades, Half and Half now seems incredibly thin)
4) Wine, mostly red, also white and sparkling (don't understand my friends who don't like sparkling wine)
5) Beer, I like the dark, but not always
6) The occasional bourbon/whiskey, but also those sweet liqueurs can be tempting.
Absolutely no soft drinks; if I'm stuck someplace without water, I'l go for unsweetened iced tea
I second Nancy's comment on indecision at restaurants. I can decide in 10-30 seconds 99% of the time.
I don't understand trying to equate men and women's athletic performances - there are so many differences. Once those hormones start taking effect, it's off to the races and no looking back. I ran cross country and track in high school, back in the dark ages, aka the 60s, and girls back then had between few and no opportunities for athletic advancement. Title IX changed that, thank goodness. There are two huge bell curves describing athletic performance between male and female -- there is plenty of overlap, but not at the extremes. In track and field, it averages about 10%; a bit less for the sprinting events, and sometimes for those ultra long distance events like 50+ miles. Otherwise, it's undeniable. I love that the kids and grandkids of my friends (no kids of my own) have such great opportunities to experience and excel at the athletic events of their choosing. Being able to run cross country and track in high school for me turned out to be a life changing event and I hope every kid has a chance at that.
Anybody who has run an organized running event has perhaps seen an "age graded performance" number, sometimes expressed as a percentage. I've spent plenty of time perusing and analyzing that data. It takes the results of, by now, many hundreds of thousands, likely millions, of runner's finishing times, along with age and gender. It lets you compare your time across years of competition. I've quite a bit of data over the years and find the comparisons to be pretty accurate. I like that it shows what I'm doing today for races matches pretty well, age-adjusted, with what I could do back in my 20s.