We tackle the controversies of the second most-watched show in Netflix history, including what we owe the victims' families. Plus: The expensive lies of Alex Jones, and the smugness of Jon Stewart
I got Covid in the beginning of September. At the same time, my dad was hospitalized with sepsis. As soon as I was out of isolation I drove to my parent's home and took over things. He wasn't going to make it back this time; we were at the end. I had promised him many times over the years that I would take care of him so he could die at home. We got him back in his home, and he died about 40 hours after.
So the past month has been an exhausting and heartbreaking fog. When I'm so tired and I can't stand feeling sad anymore I listen to your podcast. It has truly been a lifeline for me. You both make me think new things, learn new things, and laugh.
I’m so sorry for your loss. My Dad passed in 2017 and I still forget he’s gone sometimes. I almost bought him some peanut brittle at the grocery a couple of weeks ago. I remember the happy times now more than the sad times at the end though. Hopefully you’ll make your way to that easier place of grief soon but in the meantime it’s okay to just be miserable about it - just in case you’re feeling like you have to stiff upper lip it like I did for too long. I’m sorry, it just sucks.
I know, I’m not normally much of a sobber but I bawled and bawled for about six months once I finally let myself. Then a friend who watches Dr. Phil of all people - I’ve poked fun of her for years - told me one of his favorite sayings was “The depth, breadth, and longevity of your grief are not a reflection of how much you loved the person.” One of his books I think also said that you should feel the weight of grief but also make yourself remember the feeling of joy with them each time you cry until the weight shifts the balance to joy. I’m probably not saying that right but I’ve quit teasing her about her Dr. Phil addiction. It really did help. I was a little stuck because I immediately swung into action taking care of everyone else and all the paperwork etc and then I had to uncork it all. It really is much less painful now except on rare occasion when I see something like a treat or a movie he would have loved and I forget for just a minute… now I just tell him about it anyway.
Oct 15, 2022·edited Oct 15, 2022Liked by Smoke 'Em If You Got 'Em
I am shocked that Making a Murderer is not number 1. Oops. I refuse to watch the aerial killer stuff.
ETA; I really want to go to Buenes Aires. But I am a little afraid as a dude in grad school. He came from Argentina as a kid due to anti.semitism. and my mom's grad school bf, his family left after his brother was beaten to death. So I have spine uneasiness.
As for Dahmer. I was in high school in the late 90s. And our teacher talked about how he lived in a black neighborhood and the neighbors knew something was off and the cops did nothing. But my teacher said the boy's parents are from Vietnam and his brother had also been molested. Every time Dahmer's name comes up I think of that not and his parents.
Nice episode! Let me imitate Siskel & Ebert and say 👍👍! ... I appreciate Sarah and Nancy doing the hard work of watching (partly) and discussing the Dahmer films so that I can easily decide to take a pass on them. And I second the comments on Richard Jenkins; he is just so good. The slasher film he was in that Nancy was trying to remember is likely "The Cabin in the Woods" from 2011; quite a wild ride. So much stuff in this episode, I need to listen again today.
Oct 15, 2022·edited Oct 15, 2022Liked by Smoke 'Em If You Got 'Em
I really liked the graphic memoir My Friend Dahmer by Derf Beckderf, later got turned into an equally good movie. Derf (not his real name) grew up with Dahmer. He and his friends would let Dahmer tag along. he was very odd https://www.amazon.com/My-Friend-Dahmer-Derf-Backderf/dp/1419702173
I can't believe Nancy read my comment on the pod! And Sarah was super nice about it! It was really surreal (in an amazing way) hearing my (now definite) favorite podcast speak to me directly. I wasn't sure I would listen to the episode rrght away because I haven't watched the Dahmer shows yet but I'm so glad I did! And so glad I found the pod! All the heart emojis to you both!
Nancy, you are not the only one sad about NPR. I use to listen to it all day long at work and often on the weekends. I learned so much from morning shows like Morning Edition, Diane Rehm and On Point, then All Things Considered and Teri Gross in the afternoon. This American Life. Now I barely listen. I let my monthly contributions lapse and now put that money towards podcasts.
I have mixed feelings about the Monster, but one thing I found gross was the way Murphy to artistic license in the last episode trying to tie Gacy in to the story. It was completely unnecessary and the form it took (not spoiling in case you decide to watch) felt very much like a homage to AHS. I’m a fan of horror and a fan of true crime, but I don’t watch horror movies about real life serial killers because horror is entertainment, and the depiction of real people being slaughtered is not for me personally.
A second listen put a few more miles on the walking shoes and generated a few thoughts --
"Art begats art" is a phrase y'all have used a few times now and I'm starting to appreciate it more. Used this time in reference to the non-documentary Dahmer film. It doesn't feel as likely in this particular case, but who knows.
"Sad about NPR" -- I am too. I spent a lot of time listening to NPR starting with the Watergate hearings and for decades after, was happy to support them. Sometime in the 90s we began to drift apart; don't recall any particular reason or issue or event. But I've not listened in well over 20 years now and nothing I read or hear about them makes me want to try them out again.
Speaking of Watergate, if you'd told me 50 years ago that we would still be using XXX-Gate in the news for various scandals in the 21st century, I would not have believed you.
re: Texas making extreme laws and California following suit -- I'm a big fan of the states making their own laws, giving us 50 different experiments on how best to proceed, instead of just one way dictated from DC, but it can have its downside. Either they are making laws that the state residents likely don't want or, worse, passing laws that are obviously unconstitutional -- what a wasted effort. Florida is doing this as well as my home state of Ohio and I've no doubt there are many other examples.
Note -- the *end* of the Episode Notes are still claiming that next October 19th is Tuesday, not Wednesday!
I bailed on the Dahmer show at the same place Sarah did when I tried to watch it a couple of weeks ago - after that real telephone call from the neighbor. I normally am really interested in serial killer stories but I guess only when done like Nancy’s tone re Gacy or a Discovery ID documentary style. Something about the glossiness of this show… or something… I can’t quite put my finger on it but it is too repugnant. Instead of intrigued and sort of darkly curious like we often are about these terrible people and what created them, I was just repelled. I’m out.
Strange coincidence after listening to this podcast (re Dahmer) and your one about the Marilyn Monroe film (based on Joyce Carol Oates' "Blonde"): Anyone listen to the monthly New Yorker Fiction podcast? I ran into the July one last night. They read "Zombie," a short story by Joyce Carol Oates (which she later expanded into a novel). The main character is based on Dahmer/Gacy (and the like)...Very disturbing.
I started listening to this before giving attention to any Dahmer-related items. Not sure if Sarah primed me or not, but I couldn't make it through the first episode. It's incredibly jarring (and this is coming from someone that normally loves true crime). It may just be heavy dramatization is not my thing? Have since switched to Conversations and it's less intense for me.
Would love to know what made Nancy windmill Martin Amis's "Money" across the room. The awfulness of John Self? Something in the writing? I re-read "The Information" in the last year or so and it was much funnier than I remembered it.
I'm so happy when a new episode drops!
I got Covid in the beginning of September. At the same time, my dad was hospitalized with sepsis. As soon as I was out of isolation I drove to my parent's home and took over things. He wasn't going to make it back this time; we were at the end. I had promised him many times over the years that I would take care of him so he could die at home. We got him back in his home, and he died about 40 hours after.
So the past month has been an exhausting and heartbreaking fog. When I'm so tired and I can't stand feeling sad anymore I listen to your podcast. It has truly been a lifeline for me. You both make me think new things, learn new things, and laugh.
Thank you for what you do!
Oh.... deep inhale and exhale here. If Sarah and I have provided succor during this time, there is little more we can ask for xx Nancy
I’m so sorry for your loss. My Dad passed in 2017 and I still forget he’s gone sometimes. I almost bought him some peanut brittle at the grocery a couple of weeks ago. I remember the happy times now more than the sad times at the end though. Hopefully you’ll make your way to that easier place of grief soon but in the meantime it’s okay to just be miserable about it - just in case you’re feeling like you have to stiff upper lip it like I did for too long. I’m sorry, it just sucks.
Thank you so much for this!
I so want to be able to think about him with out crying!
It's so unsettling to be a second away from sobbing at any given moment.
It helps to hear that it gets better.
I know, I’m not normally much of a sobber but I bawled and bawled for about six months once I finally let myself. Then a friend who watches Dr. Phil of all people - I’ve poked fun of her for years - told me one of his favorite sayings was “The depth, breadth, and longevity of your grief are not a reflection of how much you loved the person.” One of his books I think also said that you should feel the weight of grief but also make yourself remember the feeling of joy with them each time you cry until the weight shifts the balance to joy. I’m probably not saying that right but I’ve quit teasing her about her Dr. Phil addiction. It really did help. I was a little stuck because I immediately swung into action taking care of everyone else and all the paperwork etc and then I had to uncork it all. It really is much less painful now except on rare occasion when I see something like a treat or a movie he would have loved and I forget for just a minute… now I just tell him about it anyway.
Jackie Robinson #42
That was my first thought too when they started the 42 conversation.
I really enjoy your talks.
Is there any chance for a big reveal of Sarah Lys Hepola in a new Marilyn look on your planned Wednesday hangout?
I’m not sure I speak for a majority or anything, but I have a hunch that such a tease might turn what is already a compelling event into must-see.
A complete aside here, but, Sarah Hepola, I always picture that it's YOU singing your podcast's intro song. It just sounds like it could be you.
Yes, it's me, but I had a previous career as a singer-songwriter named Dave Edmunds. -- SH
My apologies for my ignorance! I'm not familiar with Dave Edmunds. (But am I wrong that the voice sounds female, at least in this song?)
If you like the tune, don't miss Elvis Costello's original version. More slinky and insinuating.
I thought it was a woman too!
So looking forward to the live event!
I am shocked that Making a Murderer is not number 1. Oops. I refuse to watch the aerial killer stuff.
ETA; I really want to go to Buenes Aires. But I am a little afraid as a dude in grad school. He came from Argentina as a kid due to anti.semitism. and my mom's grad school bf, his family left after his brother was beaten to death. So I have spine uneasiness.
As for Dahmer. I was in high school in the late 90s. And our teacher talked about how he lived in a black neighborhood and the neighbors knew something was off and the cops did nothing. But my teacher said the boy's parents are from Vietnam and his brother had also been molested. Every time Dahmer's name comes up I think of that not and his parents.
Nice episode! Let me imitate Siskel & Ebert and say 👍👍! ... I appreciate Sarah and Nancy doing the hard work of watching (partly) and discussing the Dahmer films so that I can easily decide to take a pass on them. And I second the comments on Richard Jenkins; he is just so good. The slasher film he was in that Nancy was trying to remember is likely "The Cabin in the Woods" from 2011; quite a wild ride. So much stuff in this episode, I need to listen again today.
I really liked the graphic memoir My Friend Dahmer by Derf Beckderf, later got turned into an equally good movie. Derf (not his real name) grew up with Dahmer. He and his friends would let Dahmer tag along. he was very odd https://www.amazon.com/My-Friend-Dahmer-Derf-Backderf/dp/1419702173
I read this! And, agree - NR
I can't believe Nancy read my comment on the pod! And Sarah was super nice about it! It was really surreal (in an amazing way) hearing my (now definite) favorite podcast speak to me directly. I wasn't sure I would listen to the episode rrght away because I haven't watched the Dahmer shows yet but I'm so glad I did! And so glad I found the pod! All the heart emojis to you both!
Nancy, you are not the only one sad about NPR. I use to listen to it all day long at work and often on the weekends. I learned so much from morning shows like Morning Edition, Diane Rehm and On Point, then All Things Considered and Teri Gross in the afternoon. This American Life. Now I barely listen. I let my monthly contributions lapse and now put that money towards podcasts.
I have mixed feelings about the Monster, but one thing I found gross was the way Murphy to artistic license in the last episode trying to tie Gacy in to the story. It was completely unnecessary and the form it took (not spoiling in case you decide to watch) felt very much like a homage to AHS. I’m a fan of horror and a fan of true crime, but I don’t watch horror movies about real life serial killers because horror is entertainment, and the depiction of real people being slaughtered is not for me personally.
A second listen put a few more miles on the walking shoes and generated a few thoughts --
"Art begats art" is a phrase y'all have used a few times now and I'm starting to appreciate it more. Used this time in reference to the non-documentary Dahmer film. It doesn't feel as likely in this particular case, but who knows.
"Sad about NPR" -- I am too. I spent a lot of time listening to NPR starting with the Watergate hearings and for decades after, was happy to support them. Sometime in the 90s we began to drift apart; don't recall any particular reason or issue or event. But I've not listened in well over 20 years now and nothing I read or hear about them makes me want to try them out again.
Speaking of Watergate, if you'd told me 50 years ago that we would still be using XXX-Gate in the news for various scandals in the 21st century, I would not have believed you.
re: Texas making extreme laws and California following suit -- I'm a big fan of the states making their own laws, giving us 50 different experiments on how best to proceed, instead of just one way dictated from DC, but it can have its downside. Either they are making laws that the state residents likely don't want or, worse, passing laws that are obviously unconstitutional -- what a wasted effort. Florida is doing this as well as my home state of Ohio and I've no doubt there are many other examples.
Note -- the *end* of the Episode Notes are still claiming that next October 19th is Tuesday, not Wednesday!
Whoops, thank you! Pilot error. -- SH
I bailed on the Dahmer show at the same place Sarah did when I tried to watch it a couple of weeks ago - after that real telephone call from the neighbor. I normally am really interested in serial killer stories but I guess only when done like Nancy’s tone re Gacy or a Discovery ID documentary style. Something about the glossiness of this show… or something… I can’t quite put my finger on it but it is too repugnant. Instead of intrigued and sort of darkly curious like we often are about these terrible people and what created them, I was just repelled. I’m out.
Strange coincidence after listening to this podcast (re Dahmer) and your one about the Marilyn Monroe film (based on Joyce Carol Oates' "Blonde"): Anyone listen to the monthly New Yorker Fiction podcast? I ran into the July one last night. They read "Zombie," a short story by Joyce Carol Oates (which she later expanded into a novel). The main character is based on Dahmer/Gacy (and the like)...Very disturbing.
I started listening to this before giving attention to any Dahmer-related items. Not sure if Sarah primed me or not, but I couldn't make it through the first episode. It's incredibly jarring (and this is coming from someone that normally loves true crime). It may just be heavy dramatization is not my thing? Have since switched to Conversations and it's less intense for me.
Ladies,
Would you consider commenting on this article. She's about the only new columnist in their bullpen that interests me.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/16/opinion/middle-age-gen-x-boomer.html
Would love to know what made Nancy windmill Martin Amis's "Money" across the room. The awfulness of John Self? Something in the writing? I re-read "The Information" in the last year or so and it was much funnier than I remembered it.