Stephen Elliott, the author suing Shitty Media Men list creator Moira Donegan, talks about the fallout, the lawsuit, and that new NY Mag story. Also: #MeToo in court, Weinstein, Spacey, Haggis, et al
Continuing on with Sarah's comments on sex - was it coerced or not?
My take is that so many of us don't realize how negative the dynamics in our relationships are (family, romantic, etc.) until we are out of them. That's certainly been the case with me. I don't necessarily blame the person in the relative position of power - I would guess that many of them don't realize that's where they are. And that's my assessment of my first marriage. There are really good reasons I haven't been in touch with my first husband for many years. He was awful to me, in retrospect. But in fairness, I can understand some of why he behaved the way he did. What it meant for me is how to avoid such relationships afterwards. But that's also meant a lot of self-awareness, so that I can avoid as well as recognize and then move away from that potential in later relationships.
Re: Transactional sex as rape. I'm surprised that neither of you are familiar with that argument, considering Sarah has said she was a fan of Louise Perry's book. Louise Perry, of course, is an advocate for the so-called "Swedish model" on prostitution, where selling sex is decriminalized, but buying sex is a crime. The idea is predicated on the idea that the purchase of sex is inherently a form of sexual abuse, and along the lines of statutory rape laws, the person selling sex cannot actually give consent and is always the victim in that situation according to the law. That's the line of argument from prohibitionists, anyway.
Now of course, I don't support that idea; in fact, I find it downright infantalizing and not fully accepting of the idea that women have agency. And it's on my long list of deep disagreements with Louise Perry. Truth be told, I kind of loathe Perry, actually. Perry's kind of feminism is as toxic as Moira Donegan's in its own way. Even putting aside disagreements over sex work, I thought the kind of legislated prudery she advocates more generally was something the culture had rejected a long time ago, and now we're seeing it come back with post-MeToo ideologues of her ilk. If feminism is just the radical notion that women are children, well, then to hell with feminism.
Now as to Weinstein's "transactional sex" defense, I think it's a long shot by his lawyer, and I hope the courts don't buy it. I think for something to count as above-board sex work, it needs to be an explicit offer of pay for play on the part of the seller, not something some would-be boss can just spring on a would-be employee. The latter is just sexual harassment.
This defense also creates an inherent tension between the idea of decriminalization of sex work and sexual harassment law that does not need to be there, and as a supporter of full decrim and of the idea that there shouldn't be 'casting couches' in a regular workplace, I think it's a bad thing to muddle the two.
I remember y'all talking about the Shitty Media Men list sometime in a past episode? this summer?
Unrelated to this episode because I haven't listened yet, but:
I wish there was some kind of Substack search feature so I could find that 'media men' reference (either search through show notes or maybe through the comments).
I also wish there was a Substack feature where I could see which episodes have new comments since I last looked at them. I do get notifications about likes and replies, which is great, but Smoke 'Em commenters (and some other Substacks, too) are well informed and a way to keep up with them would be nice.
(Perhaps these requests are better sent to Substack support)
I had no fresh podcasts for this morning's walk, so I downloaded and listened to Smoke 'Em #1, which is SO OLD that it has no intro music AND it wasn't named Smoke 'Em If you Got 'Em. If y'all haven't heard it it's worth a listen, and if you have, it's worth hearing again.
I'm a retired physician and I had a private practice and worked in hospitals for several decades. Around the time of the Monica Lewinsky/Bill Clinton affair (or whatever term is appropriate) I used to occasionally see one of my fellow male physicians (same age as myself) come up behind nurses who were seated at a desk and put his arm around their shoulders. I don't recall if they were uncomfortable with that (they probably were but it was the 90's and there was a power dynamic) but I would think how did he have the gall to do that and how did he not get reported for harassment? He was what you would call "handsy" back then. The hospital had an HR department although neither he or I worked for the hospital. About 10 years later he was kicked out of his practice by his partners when an employee complained about harassment.
Anyway, as usual, a great discussion. Thank you for this podcast and this forum.
What a great episode, with so much food for thought!
I graduated from HS in 1985, and it really was a different world. I had two High School teachers ask me out, and I never even considered telling my parents. It just seemed normal. When I was a young nurse, I had a few doctors who were literally stalking me on the floor; I had patients rooms that were my go-to for hiding in. The way the curtains hid a deep window in one room made an ideal hiding spot.
And I thought this was normal!! I even thought Anita Hill was sort of whining, which I cringe to admit now.
So in retrospect, it sucked that I had to deal with this.
But I think I learned a lot about how to handle myself, and men, and became really strong. And time solved the problem, in the end.
When the Shitty Media Men list first came out, I was on Moira's side. I thought it was OK to have a spreadsheet, and that whoever leaked it online sucked. I also thought that the people who wrote lame shit on there sucked.
I wish that Stephen Elliot could do something ( legally!) to the woman who lied about him on the list. I loathe women who falsely accuse men of things.
After listening to this episode though, I think Moira Donegan probably has more culpability in all this.
Some of these women who come forward highly irritate me. The woman who accused Gov Cuomo of flirting with her at a wedding? The blogger who had a bad date with Aziz Ansari? The woman who accidently had her back touched by Al Franken- as she wore a backless dress? Gah!!! For God sake- Pull it together, sisters! All of those are good fodder for anecdotes in later life, not trauma.
In regards to Harvey Weinstein, is it not possible that in some cases he attacked women and in other cases he coerced women into having sex with him for movie roles? And that with Newsome's wife, it was sex she didn't want but agreed to because she needed to for her career. If she had said no, was she worried he would rape her? To me coerced sex as rape is really complicated - saying yes or not saying no because you think he will hurt you if you dont, that basically is rape. Saying yes because you will get money, and you probably wouldn't sleep with him otherwise, that is creepy and bad, nut mot rape.
It is hard to know what happened with Newsom. Did she agree to sex because she knew he would hslp her career or did she hear rumors and was afraid of what would happen if she said no.
I think with time we can gain clarity on a situation. But...I dont know. Like that dude who was a reporter in China. I wasnt sure how any of what he did was sexual assault.
Re: passing as another race (whatever that term means). Obviously this has gone on since time immemorial, and most people who did it, didn't want to talk too much about it. But, the most well known story of doing this journalistically is Black Like Me from 1961, where a white man changed his skin color to black, and travelled as a black man for six weeks in the pre-Civil Rights era south:
More obscure is Ray Sprigle, a reporter from the Pittsburg Post-Gazette, who did a similar thing in 1948 with the support of the NAACP. He wrote a series of articles and a book, In the Land of Jim Crow, about his experiences, winning a Pulitzer. The book is out of print and rare, but the Post Gazette has a lot of his work archived online, e.g.:
Wow, great conversation about a really knotty topic. A few points I wanted to raise: First, re: Anthony Rapp, we shouldn’t discount the likelihood of hungry Hollywood lawyers pushing him to file that lawsuit. I know I just want to give him the benefit of the doubt because he was my favorite character in the original cast recording of Rent (which I listened to a million times in high school), but I think there are several reasons to file the suit beyond the prospect of a huge payout.
Second, wow, I remember the discourse surrounding early #metoo days, and I know I read several personal essays that reframed past icky sex in that light. I even spent several days thinking through an experience I had had a few years prior, and realized that by focusing on certain parts while minimizing others, I could rewrite it in the same light. I didn’t do that, because taking personal responsibility for (part of) what happened enabled me to learn and grow from it. But the pressure/potential rewards were definitely there.
Continuing on with Sarah's comments on sex - was it coerced or not?
My take is that so many of us don't realize how negative the dynamics in our relationships are (family, romantic, etc.) until we are out of them. That's certainly been the case with me. I don't necessarily blame the person in the relative position of power - I would guess that many of them don't realize that's where they are. And that's my assessment of my first marriage. There are really good reasons I haven't been in touch with my first husband for many years. He was awful to me, in retrospect. But in fairness, I can understand some of why he behaved the way he did. What it meant for me is how to avoid such relationships afterwards. But that's also meant a lot of self-awareness, so that I can avoid as well as recognize and then move away from that potential in later relationships.
Hot 👏for👏due👏process👏
Re: Transactional sex as rape. I'm surprised that neither of you are familiar with that argument, considering Sarah has said she was a fan of Louise Perry's book. Louise Perry, of course, is an advocate for the so-called "Swedish model" on prostitution, where selling sex is decriminalized, but buying sex is a crime. The idea is predicated on the idea that the purchase of sex is inherently a form of sexual abuse, and along the lines of statutory rape laws, the person selling sex cannot actually give consent and is always the victim in that situation according to the law. That's the line of argument from prohibitionists, anyway.
Now of course, I don't support that idea; in fact, I find it downright infantalizing and not fully accepting of the idea that women have agency. And it's on my long list of deep disagreements with Louise Perry. Truth be told, I kind of loathe Perry, actually. Perry's kind of feminism is as toxic as Moira Donegan's in its own way. Even putting aside disagreements over sex work, I thought the kind of legislated prudery she advocates more generally was something the culture had rejected a long time ago, and now we're seeing it come back with post-MeToo ideologues of her ilk. If feminism is just the radical notion that women are children, well, then to hell with feminism.
Now as to Weinstein's "transactional sex" defense, I think it's a long shot by his lawyer, and I hope the courts don't buy it. I think for something to count as above-board sex work, it needs to be an explicit offer of pay for play on the part of the seller, not something some would-be boss can just spring on a would-be employee. The latter is just sexual harassment.
This defense also creates an inherent tension between the idea of decriminalization of sex work and sexual harassment law that does not need to be there, and as a supporter of full decrim and of the idea that there shouldn't be 'casting couches' in a regular workplace, I think it's a bad thing to muddle the two.
I remember y'all talking about the Shitty Media Men list sometime in a past episode? this summer?
Unrelated to this episode because I haven't listened yet, but:
I wish there was some kind of Substack search feature so I could find that 'media men' reference (either search through show notes or maybe through the comments).
I also wish there was a Substack feature where I could see which episodes have new comments since I last looked at them. I do get notifications about likes and replies, which is great, but Smoke 'Em commenters (and some other Substacks, too) are well informed and a way to keep up with them would be nice.
(Perhaps these requests are better sent to Substack support)
I had no fresh podcasts for this morning's walk, so I downloaded and listened to Smoke 'Em #1, which is SO OLD that it has no intro music AND it wasn't named Smoke 'Em If you Got 'Em. If y'all haven't heard it it's worth a listen, and if you have, it's worth hearing again.
I'm a retired physician and I had a private practice and worked in hospitals for several decades. Around the time of the Monica Lewinsky/Bill Clinton affair (or whatever term is appropriate) I used to occasionally see one of my fellow male physicians (same age as myself) come up behind nurses who were seated at a desk and put his arm around their shoulders. I don't recall if they were uncomfortable with that (they probably were but it was the 90's and there was a power dynamic) but I would think how did he have the gall to do that and how did he not get reported for harassment? He was what you would call "handsy" back then. The hospital had an HR department although neither he or I worked for the hospital. About 10 years later he was kicked out of his practice by his partners when an employee complained about harassment.
Anyway, as usual, a great discussion. Thank you for this podcast and this forum.
What a great episode, with so much food for thought!
I graduated from HS in 1985, and it really was a different world. I had two High School teachers ask me out, and I never even considered telling my parents. It just seemed normal. When I was a young nurse, I had a few doctors who were literally stalking me on the floor; I had patients rooms that were my go-to for hiding in. The way the curtains hid a deep window in one room made an ideal hiding spot.
And I thought this was normal!! I even thought Anita Hill was sort of whining, which I cringe to admit now.
So in retrospect, it sucked that I had to deal with this.
But I think I learned a lot about how to handle myself, and men, and became really strong. And time solved the problem, in the end.
When the Shitty Media Men list first came out, I was on Moira's side. I thought it was OK to have a spreadsheet, and that whoever leaked it online sucked. I also thought that the people who wrote lame shit on there sucked.
I wish that Stephen Elliot could do something ( legally!) to the woman who lied about him on the list. I loathe women who falsely accuse men of things.
After listening to this episode though, I think Moira Donegan probably has more culpability in all this.
Some of these women who come forward highly irritate me. The woman who accused Gov Cuomo of flirting with her at a wedding? The blogger who had a bad date with Aziz Ansari? The woman who accidently had her back touched by Al Franken- as she wore a backless dress? Gah!!! For God sake- Pull it together, sisters! All of those are good fodder for anecdotes in later life, not trauma.
It's all so complicated.
In regards to Harvey Weinstein, is it not possible that in some cases he attacked women and in other cases he coerced women into having sex with him for movie roles? And that with Newsome's wife, it was sex she didn't want but agreed to because she needed to for her career. If she had said no, was she worried he would rape her? To me coerced sex as rape is really complicated - saying yes or not saying no because you think he will hurt you if you dont, that basically is rape. Saying yes because you will get money, and you probably wouldn't sleep with him otherwise, that is creepy and bad, nut mot rape.
It is hard to know what happened with Newsom. Did she agree to sex because she knew he would hslp her career or did she hear rumors and was afraid of what would happen if she said no.
I think with time we can gain clarity on a situation. But...I dont know. Like that dude who was a reporter in China. I wasnt sure how any of what he did was sexual assault.
Re: passing as another race (whatever that term means). Obviously this has gone on since time immemorial, and most people who did it, didn't want to talk too much about it. But, the most well known story of doing this journalistically is Black Like Me from 1961, where a white man changed his skin color to black, and travelled as a black man for six weeks in the pre-Civil Rights era south:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Like_Me
More obscure is Ray Sprigle, a reporter from the Pittsburg Post-Gazette, who did a similar thing in 1948 with the support of the NAACP. He wrote a series of articles and a book, In the Land of Jim Crow, about his experiences, winning a Pulitzer. The book is out of print and rare, but the Post Gazette has a lot of his work archived online, e.g.:
http://old.post-gazette.com/sprigle/default.asp
Wow, great conversation about a really knotty topic. A few points I wanted to raise: First, re: Anthony Rapp, we shouldn’t discount the likelihood of hungry Hollywood lawyers pushing him to file that lawsuit. I know I just want to give him the benefit of the doubt because he was my favorite character in the original cast recording of Rent (which I listened to a million times in high school), but I think there are several reasons to file the suit beyond the prospect of a huge payout.
Second, wow, I remember the discourse surrounding early #metoo days, and I know I read several personal essays that reframed past icky sex in that light. I even spent several days thinking through an experience I had had a few years prior, and realized that by focusing on certain parts while minimizing others, I could rewrite it in the same light. I didn’t do that, because taking personal responsibility for (part of) what happened enabled me to learn and grow from it. But the pressure/potential rewards were definitely there.
Happy birthday Nancy!!! 🎉🧁🍰🎁🎂🎈🎉