It's tempting to ignore the conservative hustler and her reckless theories, but her George Floyd documentary raises questions no one else is asking. Also: Dave Chappelle slays, Twitter burns
I remember when it was Ralph Reed and the religious right that made people nervous about listening to or discussing alternative points of view. Man, times have changed.
These days, I think it is a fair opinion/assertion that it is the right that discusses anything and everything -- and it is the left that has taken up the mantel of censoring topics that go against the faith. I would have never dreamed that would be the case 30 years ago. Never. But I do now.
I'm glad you explored this, and hope you continue to wade into forbidden topics and talk about those who shall not be named. There are more stories awaiting illumination.
I got the impression you felt compelled to give your liberal bonafides before you could possibly explore the "problem" of this other human being, known as Candace Owens. Rest assured; your reputations are safe. 😊
But, if you think your friend Matt gets a blast of hate for being misidentified as a contributor to the Daily Wire, I think you might not truly understand how much hatred is spewed from the left toward those who exhibit what is considered blasphemy. It's unfortunate that he gets targeted with hate, but I promise...that's nothing. There is no persona in America that faces harsher, more vicious, misinformed judgement than black conservatives. Jason Riley, Thomas Sowell (genius), Condi Rice, Tim Scott, Candace...and a growing number of additional names… face some intense venom. And the worst part is – it is a kind of hate that gets celebrated and justified.
One of my best friends is a conservative black man and – oof -- does he wear a bullseye.
So, how you two tell the story of Candace Owens, in my opinion, there are important parts that are inaccurate. I understand why you hate her -- but you might have got some things wrong.
I trust you both and know how hard you work to get things right and understand that Candace is incredibly flawed... but if you would like to hear her story from the source, you might invest a little time in Joe Rogan's podcast with her. You'll likely still hate her, and this won't convince you that she is any more credible... but for your OWN credibility, give it a shot.
It’s a much better source than Wikipedia.
LOVE, LOVE, LOVE your podcast, so please understand that my feedback is shared out of deep respect.
Finally listened to this, and it was fascinating. I agree with a lot of her observations about outrage culture, the problem with labeling things and people, and of course, as a sober woman, I liked hearing a non-alcoholic question the let's-get-drunk orthodoxy that keeps a lot of questionable behavior in place. What I dislike is her moral certainty. She comes in way too hot for my tastes; I first noticed it on that GamerGate story (she doesn't really know what's going on with that woman who called her, she just has theories). But the argument over climate change is where you really hear her obstinance. She's correct to observe that science has been politicized, and we should always be a bit skeptical; she's wrong to conclude that means climate change is a scam. And we see this failure of rationale repeatedly with right-wing firebrands. Like, it's correct to observe that a lot of media has liberal bias; it's wrong to conclude that means it's "fake news." There's something very cynical and gunslinger about her, and it worries me. But this gives me a deeper sense of her appeal. I also noticed that Rogan kept pushing her to explain her swift political transformation, and she never really gave a satisfying reason. She's a compelling character, that's for sure. Appreciate the recommendation. -- SH
I generally agree with your take that the left is now much more censorious than the right, especially as it emanates from campus. Candace Owens tho...I'm always a little suspicious of someone who does a complete political flip overnight, as she appears to have done. Comes off as opportunistic. In the clips I've seen she just looks really cute and yells "Bullshit!" whenever someone mentions systemic racism. But I sometimes like Rogan and I guess I should give that podcast episode a listen to hear her out is a setting that isn't a full-on pissing match.
That was the one part of her interview with Rogan that I feel like gave me any insight -- as she explained her flip. It didn't exactly happen overnight, and there were some circumstances that would have caused a more immediate reaction. She is definitely all about her brand -- and that also comes across in the interview as well. It's overwhelming, in fact. So, Nancy and Sarah were right about almost everything they said. I just think there is some subtlety that was missing. They always provide so much insightful texture! I was hoping my feedback was taken in the spirit it was intended -- there was a little nuance that was missing. The way they were joking about Wikipedia, I suspect they were aware, so I wanted to share a primary source. The interview confirms their opinions more than it undermines -- but also provides some needed texture that might have been missing to how someone could change their opinion. Part of it was youth, part of it was grandparent influence, and a large part seems circumstantial.
Owens bit was very good, thanks for taking the plunge.
Fun fact, in the context of JFK assassination. When I was young I confused or misspoke "depository" as "suppository", doubtless causing confusion or amusement.
I'm guessing you taped before last night's round of Twitter departures? I feel like the company just keeps taking Elon-imposed hits. You take over a company, fire a ton of people, cause a huge drop in revenue, and generally act totally crazy. Then you offer your remaining staff either a three month severance or the prospect of massively longer hours and grueling performance expectations for no more money. It seems like almost anyone with other job options would take the severance.
All Elon has to do is look down a tier or two from the ivys to find all the hard-working, grateful for a fab job, eager college grads he could ever possibly need to work at Twitter. There are PLENTY of first generation tech kids who remember dads with dirty fingernails and hard jobs with no free coffee bar. He won’t have any difficulty replacing those who quit.
Great episode however much it pained Nancy ;) Here’s the problem with Candace Owens, I think she’s a race hustler. The “media” has suddenly noticed that race hustlers exist and might be a problem. Yeah, it’s a completely new thing now that a couple of them have popped up on the political right. My eyes could not roll any harder. My wish is that we be equally disgusted by opportunists and liars no matter their political or media alliances -even if someone like Candace Owens occasionally tells a truth that needs telling. That’s the trick of course that rockets these people into media stardom, the timely grain of truth that no one else is saying. Yes, I’m looking at you Maddow and Hannity.
You’re more generous than me. She gives me major grifter vibes just like Al Sharpton et al. I think they’re playing the same game just for different teams. That’s okay, people often disagree about her vehemently. She certainly elicits strong reactions, I’ll give her that.
Nancy I really enjoyed hearing about your trip to Israel. I have been there 5 times, and lived in Jerusalem for 3 months in the winter of 70-71 when I was in med school. When my oldest daughter graduated HS she emigrated to Israel (in 1997) without knowing anyone there or speaking a word of Hebrew (aside from shalom) She had made all the arrangements herself through the Israeli consulate in Philadelphia. We obviously went over with her. She couldn't wait for us to leave. She moved back to the states 7 years later with a husband and they still live in Mass (with 2 daughters. If you ever get a chance to go to an Israeli wedding, don't pass it up. Hers was a small wedding by Israeli standards (250-275 people) Our side of the family was represented by a total of 13 people (long trip).It was a beautiful event, very joyous as it is the duty of everyone there to make the bride happy. My son in law is of Moroccan ancestry, and their food is incredible. His mother is an amazing cook (as is my son in law) and although the wedding was at a wedding venue, she tasted every dish they offered before she approved it. They are what we would call Modern Orthodox, not secular, but not Haredi.
I hope that you talk more about the trip, and I hope the TFC guys do also.
Yes, everyone eats schnitzel. My son in law makes a wonderful chicken schnitzel. I once had a patient who was originally from Algeria (he was an Arab) who had lived in France for many years before moving to the states. I asked him once which North African country had the best cuisine, and he said Morocco, although all of them are great.
I have been told that there is a big rivalry in Israel between Moroccan and Tunisian Jews.
When I was in Jerusalem in 1970 I was fortunate enough to have Shabbat dinner with a family of Kurdish Jews and that was a fantastic meal.
Very interesting about the Candace Owens doc. Reminds me of a conversation Glenn Loury and John McWhorter had a couple years ago about a book and documentary from a very dubious source that nevertheless raised uncomfortable and under-covered questions about the Trayvon Martin case.
I'm conflicted about Chappelle. He's a brilliant comic, and there were parts of his monologue that were hilarious, notably the bit about Ukrainians fighting the Russians with everyday household items, a la Home Alone. And his mastery of his craft is obvious every moment he's on stage. But I confess I don't really know where he's coming from on what we might call "the Jewish question." So: never use the words "the" and "Jews" sequentially? I'd bet that if a public (or private) person used the word "the" followed by "names of some other broad categories of people" followed by some wild shit, he'd be in for a bumpy ride, too. And the pushback would be appropriate. (Whether it was proportionate would be a separate question.) You say there are a lot of Jews in Hollywood? OK...and? What does that mean? That you're not entirely free to say that they're false Jews with sinister powers? He says you can't lay the plight of the Jews at the feet of black Americans. Was anyone saying you could, or should? The impulse here seems to be to stand up for the downtrodden, but I'm not sure Kanye qualifies. (I agree with Nancy that it would have been better if Kanye could've been taken aside by caring people and, as it were, ministered to, instead of excoriated, but that might not be possible with someone who on a good day has an ego to rival Caligula's.) Maybe Chappelle's too deep for me, or maybe the art of it lies in the ambiguity, and I'm being a philistine. And I *am not* saying Chappelle's an anti-semite or should be silenced or anything of the kind. I think he wanted to defend someone he knows and likes and the result was too cute by half.
Glenn says something like "This kind of damning evidence (about Trayvon) isn't going to be published by some mild mannered conservative magazine like First Things."
Meghan, I had to stop everything to say that I also thought you were 5’9/5’10. I’m listening to Special Place in Hell (but only subscribe to Unspeakable). So great to give off tall energy!
As I was listening to this episode, I saw news that New Zealand’s Supreme Court had ruled that voting rights should be extended to 16 year olds. I also saw lots of praise for the decision that framed young people and minors as the most clear and righteous voices on a variety of political issues.
It strikes me that the logic that makes people dismiss facts if they come from right-wing or “problematic” figures (eg the facts about George Floyd’s life uncovered in the Candace Owens documentary) is the same logic that leads adults to defer to minors in discussions of gender, climate change, etc. Undergirding both of these moves is the formative belief that the moral quality of the speaker is what makes their insights valuable.
Contrast this with the epistemology we all grew up with, which posits that truth exists as a neutral and objective thing above and beyond and apart from those who speak or discover it. And—equally important—truth has value in and of itself AS the truth.
Fundamentally, then, what you’re grappling with here is a different epistemology than the one we were all raised with. Truth, in this epistemology, is shaped by who speaks it, and facts spoken by Bad People are irrelevant and even dangerous, insofar as to recognize them as facts means recognizing the moral authority of their speaker.
i think everyone thinks that their cuisine is the best (except the English, justifiably) and I think that they are all correct.
When I was in Jerusalem, I think I walked on almost every street in that city (it was much smaller in 1970). I used to eat in a restaurant in the Old City run by a redheaded Arab (he must have had some Norman ancestry from the Crusades). I loved their marrow and rice. They also offered a dish of calf brains. I declined.
Rena Quint's story is on Yad Vashem's youtube channel. The instant you said her name I was pretty sure I knew who you were talking about. When you mentioned the part about her mothers, then I was sure.
I found her to he awe-inspiring. Especially her positivity. But what truly broke my heart is that she was separated from her mom and brothers at such a young age that she doesn't remember what they look like. And she has no pictures. I cannot even imagine.
Oh boy, I'm nervous just listening to the podcast! (Coming at you from the Twin Cities).
I remember when it was Ralph Reed and the religious right that made people nervous about listening to or discussing alternative points of view. Man, times have changed.
These days, I think it is a fair opinion/assertion that it is the right that discusses anything and everything -- and it is the left that has taken up the mantel of censoring topics that go against the faith. I would have never dreamed that would be the case 30 years ago. Never. But I do now.
I'm glad you explored this, and hope you continue to wade into forbidden topics and talk about those who shall not be named. There are more stories awaiting illumination.
I got the impression you felt compelled to give your liberal bonafides before you could possibly explore the "problem" of this other human being, known as Candace Owens. Rest assured; your reputations are safe. 😊
But, if you think your friend Matt gets a blast of hate for being misidentified as a contributor to the Daily Wire, I think you might not truly understand how much hatred is spewed from the left toward those who exhibit what is considered blasphemy. It's unfortunate that he gets targeted with hate, but I promise...that's nothing. There is no persona in America that faces harsher, more vicious, misinformed judgement than black conservatives. Jason Riley, Thomas Sowell (genius), Condi Rice, Tim Scott, Candace...and a growing number of additional names… face some intense venom. And the worst part is – it is a kind of hate that gets celebrated and justified.
One of my best friends is a conservative black man and – oof -- does he wear a bullseye.
So, how you two tell the story of Candace Owens, in my opinion, there are important parts that are inaccurate. I understand why you hate her -- but you might have got some things wrong.
I trust you both and know how hard you work to get things right and understand that Candace is incredibly flawed... but if you would like to hear her story from the source, you might invest a little time in Joe Rogan's podcast with her. You'll likely still hate her, and this won't convince you that she is any more credible... but for your OWN credibility, give it a shot.
It’s a much better source than Wikipedia.
LOVE, LOVE, LOVE your podcast, so please understand that my feedback is shared out of deep respect.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/4yV5O4PBIq56MczfSGmQfn
I'll listen to that. Always appreciate hearing from folks who can deepen our understanding of any topic. -- SH
Hang in there. There will be things that will justifiably piss you off. Zero doubt about it. So, it’ll likely be a challenging task. Hahah
But the part about the libel threat against the Washington Post for an interview she recorded is pretty compelling.
Finally listened to this, and it was fascinating. I agree with a lot of her observations about outrage culture, the problem with labeling things and people, and of course, as a sober woman, I liked hearing a non-alcoholic question the let's-get-drunk orthodoxy that keeps a lot of questionable behavior in place. What I dislike is her moral certainty. She comes in way too hot for my tastes; I first noticed it on that GamerGate story (she doesn't really know what's going on with that woman who called her, she just has theories). But the argument over climate change is where you really hear her obstinance. She's correct to observe that science has been politicized, and we should always be a bit skeptical; she's wrong to conclude that means climate change is a scam. And we see this failure of rationale repeatedly with right-wing firebrands. Like, it's correct to observe that a lot of media has liberal bias; it's wrong to conclude that means it's "fake news." There's something very cynical and gunslinger about her, and it worries me. But this gives me a deeper sense of her appeal. I also noticed that Rogan kept pushing her to explain her swift political transformation, and she never really gave a satisfying reason. She's a compelling character, that's for sure. Appreciate the recommendation. -- SH
She's an attractive, intelligent and strong woman. Formidable in any situation.
I generally agree with your take that the left is now much more censorious than the right, especially as it emanates from campus. Candace Owens tho...I'm always a little suspicious of someone who does a complete political flip overnight, as she appears to have done. Comes off as opportunistic. In the clips I've seen she just looks really cute and yells "Bullshit!" whenever someone mentions systemic racism. But I sometimes like Rogan and I guess I should give that podcast episode a listen to hear her out is a setting that isn't a full-on pissing match.
That was the one part of her interview with Rogan that I feel like gave me any insight -- as she explained her flip. It didn't exactly happen overnight, and there were some circumstances that would have caused a more immediate reaction. She is definitely all about her brand -- and that also comes across in the interview as well. It's overwhelming, in fact. So, Nancy and Sarah were right about almost everything they said. I just think there is some subtlety that was missing. They always provide so much insightful texture! I was hoping my feedback was taken in the spirit it was intended -- there was a little nuance that was missing. The way they were joking about Wikipedia, I suspect they were aware, so I wanted to share a primary source. The interview confirms their opinions more than it undermines -- but also provides some needed texture that might have been missing to how someone could change their opinion. Part of it was youth, part of it was grandparent influence, and a large part seems circumstantial.
Owens bit was very good, thanks for taking the plunge.
Fun fact, in the context of JFK assassination. When I was young I confused or misspoke "depository" as "suppository", doubtless causing confusion or amusement.
I'm guessing you taped before last night's round of Twitter departures? I feel like the company just keeps taking Elon-imposed hits. You take over a company, fire a ton of people, cause a huge drop in revenue, and generally act totally crazy. Then you offer your remaining staff either a three month severance or the prospect of massively longer hours and grueling performance expectations for no more money. It seems like almost anyone with other job options would take the severance.
All Elon has to do is look down a tier or two from the ivys to find all the hard-working, grateful for a fab job, eager college grads he could ever possibly need to work at Twitter. There are PLENTY of first generation tech kids who remember dads with dirty fingernails and hard jobs with no free coffee bar. He won’t have any difficulty replacing those who quit.
Great episode however much it pained Nancy ;) Here’s the problem with Candace Owens, I think she’s a race hustler. The “media” has suddenly noticed that race hustlers exist and might be a problem. Yeah, it’s a completely new thing now that a couple of them have popped up on the political right. My eyes could not roll any harder. My wish is that we be equally disgusted by opportunists and liars no matter their political or media alliances -even if someone like Candace Owens occasionally tells a truth that needs telling. That’s the trick of course that rockets these people into media stardom, the timely grain of truth that no one else is saying. Yes, I’m looking at you Maddow and Hannity.
Race hustling... interesting. She would argue she is standing up to the race hustlers.
I might not agree with her, but I do not doubt her passion and loyalty to her entire legacy and family tree.
You’re more generous than me. She gives me major grifter vibes just like Al Sharpton et al. I think they’re playing the same game just for different teams. That’s okay, people often disagree about her vehemently. She certainly elicits strong reactions, I’ll give her that.
Nancy I really enjoyed hearing about your trip to Israel. I have been there 5 times, and lived in Jerusalem for 3 months in the winter of 70-71 when I was in med school. When my oldest daughter graduated HS she emigrated to Israel (in 1997) without knowing anyone there or speaking a word of Hebrew (aside from shalom) She had made all the arrangements herself through the Israeli consulate in Philadelphia. We obviously went over with her. She couldn't wait for us to leave. She moved back to the states 7 years later with a husband and they still live in Mass (with 2 daughters. If you ever get a chance to go to an Israeli wedding, don't pass it up. Hers was a small wedding by Israeli standards (250-275 people) Our side of the family was represented by a total of 13 people (long trip).It was a beautiful event, very joyous as it is the duty of everyone there to make the bride happy. My son in law is of Moroccan ancestry, and their food is incredible. His mother is an amazing cook (as is my son in law) and although the wedding was at a wedding venue, she tasted every dish they offered before she approved it. They are what we would call Modern Orthodox, not secular, but not Haredi.
I hope that you talk more about the trip, and I hope the TFC guys do also.
Great episode. Thank you
My mom's best friend from the army (Isrsel) is from Egypt. One sister married a guy who came from Iran as a kid. Best Shabbat food ever.
My mom' s cousin's partner is from Iraq. Yumminess too.
One of his daughters married a guy whose family is from Morocco and another from Algeria. More deliciousness.
Though I will say EVERYONE now eats schnitzel.
Yes, everyone eats schnitzel. My son in law makes a wonderful chicken schnitzel. I once had a patient who was originally from Algeria (he was an Arab) who had lived in France for many years before moving to the states. I asked him once which North African country had the best cuisine, and he said Morocco, although all of them are great.
I have been told that there is a big rivalry in Israel between Moroccan and Tunisian Jews.
When I was in Jerusalem in 1970 I was fortunate enough to have Shabbat dinner with a family of Kurdish Jews and that was a fantastic meal.
You lived in Israel around the same time my mother moved to the States. Funny.
Because of the town my mother grew in, I know a lot of Iraqis. They think their food is the best. I dont know but it is so good.
Still. Given their location, it doesn't surprise me that Tunisians and Moroccans have a rivalry.
Oh man, I want to go to that wedding!
if i had known you back then, I would have invited you
Ctap. Forgot to say. Is Jesse Singal on the same trip or is he visiting Israel at the same time?
Alao. I hope you eat sabeech while you are in Israel. Tries yummy.
I was wondering the same thing! He did mention yael.
Very interesting about the Candace Owens doc. Reminds me of a conversation Glenn Loury and John McWhorter had a couple years ago about a book and documentary from a very dubious source that nevertheless raised uncomfortable and under-covered questions about the Trayvon Martin case.
I'm conflicted about Chappelle. He's a brilliant comic, and there were parts of his monologue that were hilarious, notably the bit about Ukrainians fighting the Russians with everyday household items, a la Home Alone. And his mastery of his craft is obvious every moment he's on stage. But I confess I don't really know where he's coming from on what we might call "the Jewish question." So: never use the words "the" and "Jews" sequentially? I'd bet that if a public (or private) person used the word "the" followed by "names of some other broad categories of people" followed by some wild shit, he'd be in for a bumpy ride, too. And the pushback would be appropriate. (Whether it was proportionate would be a separate question.) You say there are a lot of Jews in Hollywood? OK...and? What does that mean? That you're not entirely free to say that they're false Jews with sinister powers? He says you can't lay the plight of the Jews at the feet of black Americans. Was anyone saying you could, or should? The impulse here seems to be to stand up for the downtrodden, but I'm not sure Kanye qualifies. (I agree with Nancy that it would have been better if Kanye could've been taken aside by caring people and, as it were, ministered to, instead of excoriated, but that might not be possible with someone who on a good day has an ego to rival Caligula's.) Maybe Chappelle's too deep for me, or maybe the art of it lies in the ambiguity, and I'm being a philistine. And I *am not* saying Chappelle's an anti-semite or should be silenced or anything of the kind. I think he wanted to defend someone he knows and likes and the result was too cute by half.
Great podcast!
I was going to mention that episode of the Glenn show!
It is a dofferent episode than the one about the doc about Michael Brown? The one by Eli Steele?
https://youtu.be/xO0nyuIXYJE
Glenn says something like "This kind of damning evidence (about Trayvon) isn't going to be published by some mild mannered conservative magazine like First Things."
I was thinking of this one, from 2019, I think, where they set the stage:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxPV9G8G9xM
And part two:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UG1V1f84Vs
Meghan, I had to stop everything to say that I also thought you were 5’9/5’10. I’m listening to Special Place in Hell (but only subscribe to Unspeakable). So great to give off tall energy!
Hmmm. I think you have the wrong comments thread, though we love Meghan, too. -- SH
Hahahahahaha! I am MORTIFIED! I hope you’re all better, Sarah!! ❤️
As I was listening to this episode, I saw news that New Zealand’s Supreme Court had ruled that voting rights should be extended to 16 year olds. I also saw lots of praise for the decision that framed young people and minors as the most clear and righteous voices on a variety of political issues.
It strikes me that the logic that makes people dismiss facts if they come from right-wing or “problematic” figures (eg the facts about George Floyd’s life uncovered in the Candace Owens documentary) is the same logic that leads adults to defer to minors in discussions of gender, climate change, etc. Undergirding both of these moves is the formative belief that the moral quality of the speaker is what makes their insights valuable.
Contrast this with the epistemology we all grew up with, which posits that truth exists as a neutral and objective thing above and beyond and apart from those who speak or discover it. And—equally important—truth has value in and of itself AS the truth.
Fundamentally, then, what you’re grappling with here is a different epistemology than the one we were all raised with. Truth, in this epistemology, is shaped by who speaks it, and facts spoken by Bad People are irrelevant and even dangerous, insofar as to recognize them as facts means recognizing the moral authority of their speaker.
i think everyone thinks that their cuisine is the best (except the English, justifiably) and I think that they are all correct.
When I was in Jerusalem, I think I walked on almost every street in that city (it was much smaller in 1970). I used to eat in a restaurant in the Old City run by a redheaded Arab (he must have had some Norman ancestry from the Crusades). I loved their marrow and rice. They also offered a dish of calf brains. I declined.
Rena Quint's story is on Yad Vashem's youtube channel. The instant you said her name I was pretty sure I knew who you were talking about. When you mentioned the part about her mothers, then I was sure.
I found her to he awe-inspiring. Especially her positivity. But what truly broke my heart is that she was separated from her mom and brothers at such a young age that she doesn't remember what they look like. And she has no pictures. I cannot even imagine.
Love the outro music!!!
Andrew Schulz, wow. Thanks for that rec! I was laughing a LOT and shocked in a good way, and imagining all the Gen Zers passing out with outrage lol.