Our Independence Day episode: What we lose in the rush to judgment, Biden's new Title IX codes, how every generation tries to hack sex, and the moonlight in Elvis' voice
I wasn't a huge Elvis fan, but definitely remember the weekend he died -- had just moved to Seattle - August '77 - and there was a big heat wave going on (well, big for Seattle, but now I know every other part of the country would just laugh). I've come to appreciate Elvis more the older I get. Did visit the homestead in Tupelo quite a while ago.
Great show notes AGAIN; I'm going to spend this week working through them. And I need to listen to the whole podcast again, on tomorrow's morning walk. Thank you and best wishes on Independence Day!
Arthur Miller used the Salem Witch Trials as an allegory for McCarthyism... if someone would do the same with today's environment they should base it on the French Revolution -- mobs of unforgiving factions all out to cut each other's heads off. Forgiveness won't make a comeback until the fanaticism fades. Let's just hope we don't end with a Napoleon. Ugh.
Elvis Aaron/Jesse Garon. 3 things that are burned into my memory: where I was when I heard Elvis died (I was 9), where I was when I heard Bear Bryant died (it was over the school intercom - I grew up in Alabama), where I was on 9/11.
I was born in 1950 so I experienced Elvis from the late 50's on and I remember the young(er) Elvis. You are absolutely right about young women driving the frenzy. And it wasn't just Elvis. The popularity of The Beatles was driven by young women and girls. I remember my sister (born 1951) going to see them in the 1964 or 1965. Frank Sinatra's early fame was a product of the bobby soxers.
I have a question for both of you since you are not old enough to have seen Elvis live when he was young (or the Beatles before they broke up). Which artist would you most like to go back in time to see perform live that you couldn't see during your lifetime because they were either way past their prime or dead? For me it is Billie Holiday, preferably in a small club with Lester Young and Teddy Wilson. She didn't have the vocal range of many other vocalists (Ella, Sarah Vaughn, Mariah Carey) but in my opinion she could "sing the song" like few others.
Thank you again for your podcast. I love your perspectives and your chemistry.
I wish that the activists who press for these life-changing punishments on boys for these infractions had any real understanding of developmental psychology. These kids are making mistakes, learning from them, growing - in many ways, their brains are literally incapable of certain nuanced understandings that we take for granted. Obviously I don’t think that this means we should excuse all of their misdeeds, but juvenile courts (try to) take this into account, so the court of public opinion should do the same.
This was so good for my soul. I grew up in an old fashioned Catholic family and forgiveness was expected along with penitence. I also found that it made me feel good - much better than holding on to grievances. It even feels better than snarky jokes about how dumb our culture has gotten (although I enjoy that too. Gotta laugh right?). Honestly, even hearing the discussion via podcast, about someone none of us has met, feels like a dip in a cool pond on a hot day. Happy 4th and thank you.
Sorry for this late comment that I will understand if it's not even read, but I just have to say, Sarah, I am with you. I am a classic lefty who got slammed on social media for just musing about what makes these "bad men" do these bad things. I will be left of center forever, but I've decided to step out of the river of rage in the culture right now and let other people fight it out. I feel for you and Nancy, putting yourselves out there to be jeered at. I'm still catching up on episodes but this podcast is my oasis these days. You smoke gals are worth every penny. You're doing something really important here.
I continue to be impressed with and grateful for this podcast and the notes and articles on substack. I apologize for not also paying as of yet. My current explanation (excuse) is that our kitchen is being disassembled after a leak from the sink, discovery of asbestos, and other joys, and while we endure weeks (or months) of contractor delay, I am not sure what insurance is picking up and what I am. I know it is only $70, but I think I have to hold off.
Having made my confession, I do want to jump in nonetheless, for what it is worth.
I especially appreciate the discussion of forgiveness, as it is a complex and nuanced issue. I think there are things that do not merit forgiveness, at least not without more. But, we seem all over the map on how to handle forgiveness. We make kids "say they are sorry", usually when they feel anything but sorry in the heat of the moment. We sentence people to long prison terms, and while punishment is part of it, rehabilitation is supposed to be part of the bargain, and, is probably the most important investment for society as a whole. Yet we usually are not forgiving and don't do any kind of routinely good job in rehabilitation. It is the rare story, it would seem, rather than the regular one, that someone has been able to better themselves while incarcerated. Just as we need better policing and better investments in public safety, we also need better investments and better research in how to help offenders, especially violent offenders, rehabilitate, reenter society, and have dignity and purpose. But we are so ready to dispose of people, we are ready to crush someone for relatively small infractions, and are also ready to have no expectations for someone who has been truly harmful (having committed violence or other crimes against others). We do what is easy, and not what is right.
Forgiveness generally takes work. It often has to be a process, and I think our society is not well geared towards making genuinely successful processes of forgiveness.
I don't have concrete solutions, it is definitely not my field of study or expertise, but I would guess that there are people out there, probably politically orphaned like so many of us, who are shunned by both political extremes, who have some hard work, backed by research, on things that can be done. It will cost time, money, and not be a panacea (there will be failures), but over time, it could change a lot of lives, and frankly, save a lot of money preventing recidivism and bringing down crime and allowing more people to contribute in meaningful ways to our country. They could earn forgiveness and we should give them that chance and our forgiveness.
I also always appreciate Nancy's discussion of Indian/Native American issues (see, I am too scared to settle on just one term). I have passing familiarity with some issues, enough to probably be dangerous in my certainty and ignorance. I did a lot of study of the societies of South America before quitting academia for the relative sanity of the law (that tells you something). All my study of anthropology tells me that people can do and be a lot of different things, but also, that people are fundamentally pretty similar as well. We are advanced primates, and I find accusations of cultural appropriation as fundamentally anti-human. Culture is pattern, and we see cultural attributes diffuse, passed from person to person from the time the first hominids started developing in Africa. My analysis of how things work for humans fundamentally boils down to "monkey see, monkey do." That's how we interact with the world and with other people. Somebody doing something interesting? Eating something interesting? Wearing something interesting? Well, then I am probably going to attempt to try it out too.
But wait, you don't understand the super special cultural context. You don't get the meaning. You are doing it wrong.
Yep. That is pretty much what humans do. All the time. All through history. An will be doing forever.
I am not opposed to having a more nuanced, respectful and contemplative exchange of meaning, transmission of culture, and mix of ideas. That goes on a lot too. But, it doesn't have to. I object to the attempted power move that "you can't do that" because "this BELONGS to someone else." The more you pick at that BELONGS, the more it falls apart. Ideas and practices, patterns and influences flow through human history, carrying, circulating, inventing and reinventing things over, and over and over. Belongs is a pretty tricky thing. Respectful discussion and explanation may or may not be very productive. I tend to think that with people of good will it does good things. But the power move, the attempt to dominate and shame and stoke outrage. I reject it. It makes culture a temporary commodity through which one individual or group is trying to dominate another individual or group through unsustainable claims, demands and illusory moral authority. There is no wisdom in the practice. It just seems to be clout chasing.
I don't want to be insensitive to the spiritual beliefs of others, but also I think we all inhabit the same level playing field here too. Part of setting Indians up on a pedestal and thereby treating them as a stereotype of noble savage or special category robbed of agency, is treating certain spiritual beliefs as more important, more sacrosanct, and unquestioned that others. Nancy rightly points out that we likely would not try to recreate the Catholic mass as a form of entertainment, but that is likely because that doesn't seem that exciting.
Now, one could say, well, this is all from dominant Western society and religion, though, of course, really, it is not very dominant anymore, despite what a lot of handwringers might say.
In general, I prefer to be respectful of religion, understanding of faith, and demanding only that tolerance be equally extended, and no dominance allowed of any particular group. People are free to practice or to ignore. People are free to explore, interrogate, reject, mock, and appropriate. Otherwise, are we not just putting the beliefs, myths, stories and ideas of natives on their own reservation, under glass? They are not strong enough to stand up to the vicissitudes of society like "real" religions. I think that would be a mistake.
The deserve equal dignity (and yes, I am well aware of the attempts to extirpate native beliefs, languages, and practices) and equal treatment and responsibilities with any other faith practice in the country. That does mean that they may get adopted and adapted by others. They may change and evolve (what was the Ghost Dance but an evolution and reaction to seemingly apocalyptic events, and it was not a universally embraced practice either; not every belief system thought the idea of the dead coming back was such a great idea), and they may die. Religious beliefs, sects and ideas live only as long as their believers and I don't think we can demand or mandate belief or police its edges. We have to trust individuals and the societies they create for themselves.
I have wandered around a lot here in response, but I guess I could not help but share a slice of the thoughts your conversations spark.
Finally, I wanted to appreciate an actor who has come more and more to my attention. He is in Reservation Dogs (playing a cop), and I first saw him in Longmire (also playing a cop) and currently am watching him in Dark Winds (once again, playing a cop), but his range is definitely beyond any kind of typecasting. Zahn McClarnon, for whom I note the Wikipedia entry states (I am sure with no errors at all) often visited the Blackfeet Indian Reservation (so that is a second intersection with Nancy), is really quite a fantastic actor. He has been in lots of roles, often with an emphasis on being Indian, but always brough a lot more dimension to his performances. I just saw him back, at least for a brief stint, on season 4 of Westworld, where he has been both the stereotypical Indian, and also in some very nuanced science fiction scenarios as one of the android "hosts" in the show. Also, he had a really memorable role in the horror western Bone Tomahawk, where he played an against type Indian, the only person in town who was actually well educated (called "Professor") and he immediately knows what is going on and tells the sheriff and the other cowboys not to go after the monsters, and of course they don't listen. Anyway, I have never heard him interviewed, and I am not sure what he as an artist might have to add to the whole conversation, but I can imagine you two would do a great interview with him, should that ever be relevant.
I loved hearing you both wrestle with forgiveness. It is an honest discussion, everyone should listen to it. I wrestle with forgiveness. I think it is the only honest approach. De Boer's piece is about people who don't wrestle with it. The NY Mag piece is written by someone who doesn't wrestle either - those who wrestle with forgiveness are (in this understanding) bad themselves, they know they will need it - unlike the non-wrestlers. There is some truth to this, probably. I think that we all have, do, will need forgiveness. Non-wrestlers whistle past that particular graveyard.
Nancy, I think it was you who mentioned that everyone deserves forgiveness. I know what you mean, I think. But I wouldn't say that. It should be granted to us, but it can't really be earned - it isn't penance. That is the scandal of it. I don't think I can ever be justified in looking downhill at someone else, forgetting when I have needed forgiveness - I should not withhold it ... but there is an essential injustice that seems to linger in granting it. We are letting them off the hook, it seems. We are not, but it feels too easy, that is the scandal of it. It isn't easy at all - it is the hardest thing in some ways.
You both wrestled with the contradiction of some who lack forgiveness for culture war missteps, but who want people released from prison for what is objectively worse. I think I mostly disagree with both positions. There is a justice that is due for someone who has done a wrong big enough to require incarceration. What constitutes big enough and what kind of incarceration serves society are good questions, but even if there was a rehabilitation pill that instantly worked, some justice for the sake of the victim doesn't seem out of place. Rehabilitation and what is good for everyone is completely missing, of course, from the culture war inflictors of unjust penalties.
It might be unseemly to reference something I have written, but I am replying because I was wrestling with all of this myself - but in reference to something completely different, the mass shooters. Anyway, love to hear what you think if you read it - I realize it is a lot to ask and you can't read everything sent to you by readers. But my thing is called The Embassy - theembassy.substack.com - and the link to the latest piece is - https://theembassy.substack.com/p/7354920c-e5fc-474e-9756-773ebdc4ba55.
In any event, I enjoy listening to and reading you both. I come from a little bit of a different place, but I appreciate your thoughtfulness and honesty - and wrestling. There isn't enough of it.
I wasn't a huge Elvis fan, but definitely remember the weekend he died -- had just moved to Seattle - August '77 - and there was a big heat wave going on (well, big for Seattle, but now I know every other part of the country would just laugh). I've come to appreciate Elvis more the older I get. Did visit the homestead in Tupelo quite a while ago.
Great show notes AGAIN; I'm going to spend this week working through them. And I need to listen to the whole podcast again, on tomorrow's morning walk. Thank you and best wishes on Independence Day!
Such a great discussion. Very smart.
Arthur Miller used the Salem Witch Trials as an allegory for McCarthyism... if someone would do the same with today's environment they should base it on the French Revolution -- mobs of unforgiving factions all out to cut each other's heads off. Forgiveness won't make a comeback until the fanaticism fades. Let's just hope we don't end with a Napoleon. Ugh.
Me: $.99? I'll buy it.
Amazon: Uh, you bought it in 2018, ya dope.
Elvis Aaron/Jesse Garon. 3 things that are burned into my memory: where I was when I heard Elvis died (I was 9), where I was when I heard Bear Bryant died (it was over the school intercom - I grew up in Alabama), where I was on 9/11.
I love that! And have had same experience
I was born in 1950 so I experienced Elvis from the late 50's on and I remember the young(er) Elvis. You are absolutely right about young women driving the frenzy. And it wasn't just Elvis. The popularity of The Beatles was driven by young women and girls. I remember my sister (born 1951) going to see them in the 1964 or 1965. Frank Sinatra's early fame was a product of the bobby soxers.
I have a question for both of you since you are not old enough to have seen Elvis live when he was young (or the Beatles before they broke up). Which artist would you most like to go back in time to see perform live that you couldn't see during your lifetime because they were either way past their prime or dead? For me it is Billie Holiday, preferably in a small club with Lester Young and Teddy Wilson. She didn't have the vocal range of many other vocalists (Ella, Sarah Vaughn, Mariah Carey) but in my opinion she could "sing the song" like few others.
Thank you again for your podcast. I love your perspectives and your chemistry.
I wish that the activists who press for these life-changing punishments on boys for these infractions had any real understanding of developmental psychology. These kids are making mistakes, learning from them, growing - in many ways, their brains are literally incapable of certain nuanced understandings that we take for granted. Obviously I don’t think that this means we should excuse all of their misdeeds, but juvenile courts (try to) take this into account, so the court of public opinion should do the same.
This was so good for my soul. I grew up in an old fashioned Catholic family and forgiveness was expected along with penitence. I also found that it made me feel good - much better than holding on to grievances. It even feels better than snarky jokes about how dumb our culture has gotten (although I enjoy that too. Gotta laugh right?). Honestly, even hearing the discussion via podcast, about someone none of us has met, feels like a dip in a cool pond on a hot day. Happy 4th and thank you.
Sorry for this late comment that I will understand if it's not even read, but I just have to say, Sarah, I am with you. I am a classic lefty who got slammed on social media for just musing about what makes these "bad men" do these bad things. I will be left of center forever, but I've decided to step out of the river of rage in the culture right now and let other people fight it out. I feel for you and Nancy, putting yourselves out there to be jeered at. I'm still catching up on episodes but this podcast is my oasis these days. You smoke gals are worth every penny. You're doing something really important here.
I continue to be impressed with and grateful for this podcast and the notes and articles on substack. I apologize for not also paying as of yet. My current explanation (excuse) is that our kitchen is being disassembled after a leak from the sink, discovery of asbestos, and other joys, and while we endure weeks (or months) of contractor delay, I am not sure what insurance is picking up and what I am. I know it is only $70, but I think I have to hold off.
Having made my confession, I do want to jump in nonetheless, for what it is worth.
I especially appreciate the discussion of forgiveness, as it is a complex and nuanced issue. I think there are things that do not merit forgiveness, at least not without more. But, we seem all over the map on how to handle forgiveness. We make kids "say they are sorry", usually when they feel anything but sorry in the heat of the moment. We sentence people to long prison terms, and while punishment is part of it, rehabilitation is supposed to be part of the bargain, and, is probably the most important investment for society as a whole. Yet we usually are not forgiving and don't do any kind of routinely good job in rehabilitation. It is the rare story, it would seem, rather than the regular one, that someone has been able to better themselves while incarcerated. Just as we need better policing and better investments in public safety, we also need better investments and better research in how to help offenders, especially violent offenders, rehabilitate, reenter society, and have dignity and purpose. But we are so ready to dispose of people, we are ready to crush someone for relatively small infractions, and are also ready to have no expectations for someone who has been truly harmful (having committed violence or other crimes against others). We do what is easy, and not what is right.
Forgiveness generally takes work. It often has to be a process, and I think our society is not well geared towards making genuinely successful processes of forgiveness.
I don't have concrete solutions, it is definitely not my field of study or expertise, but I would guess that there are people out there, probably politically orphaned like so many of us, who are shunned by both political extremes, who have some hard work, backed by research, on things that can be done. It will cost time, money, and not be a panacea (there will be failures), but over time, it could change a lot of lives, and frankly, save a lot of money preventing recidivism and bringing down crime and allowing more people to contribute in meaningful ways to our country. They could earn forgiveness and we should give them that chance and our forgiveness.
I also always appreciate Nancy's discussion of Indian/Native American issues (see, I am too scared to settle on just one term). I have passing familiarity with some issues, enough to probably be dangerous in my certainty and ignorance. I did a lot of study of the societies of South America before quitting academia for the relative sanity of the law (that tells you something). All my study of anthropology tells me that people can do and be a lot of different things, but also, that people are fundamentally pretty similar as well. We are advanced primates, and I find accusations of cultural appropriation as fundamentally anti-human. Culture is pattern, and we see cultural attributes diffuse, passed from person to person from the time the first hominids started developing in Africa. My analysis of how things work for humans fundamentally boils down to "monkey see, monkey do." That's how we interact with the world and with other people. Somebody doing something interesting? Eating something interesting? Wearing something interesting? Well, then I am probably going to attempt to try it out too.
But wait, you don't understand the super special cultural context. You don't get the meaning. You are doing it wrong.
Yep. That is pretty much what humans do. All the time. All through history. An will be doing forever.
I am not opposed to having a more nuanced, respectful and contemplative exchange of meaning, transmission of culture, and mix of ideas. That goes on a lot too. But, it doesn't have to. I object to the attempted power move that "you can't do that" because "this BELONGS to someone else." The more you pick at that BELONGS, the more it falls apart. Ideas and practices, patterns and influences flow through human history, carrying, circulating, inventing and reinventing things over, and over and over. Belongs is a pretty tricky thing. Respectful discussion and explanation may or may not be very productive. I tend to think that with people of good will it does good things. But the power move, the attempt to dominate and shame and stoke outrage. I reject it. It makes culture a temporary commodity through which one individual or group is trying to dominate another individual or group through unsustainable claims, demands and illusory moral authority. There is no wisdom in the practice. It just seems to be clout chasing.
I don't want to be insensitive to the spiritual beliefs of others, but also I think we all inhabit the same level playing field here too. Part of setting Indians up on a pedestal and thereby treating them as a stereotype of noble savage or special category robbed of agency, is treating certain spiritual beliefs as more important, more sacrosanct, and unquestioned that others. Nancy rightly points out that we likely would not try to recreate the Catholic mass as a form of entertainment, but that is likely because that doesn't seem that exciting.
However, we've been happy to be entertained and influenced by Madonna: https://youtu.be/79fzeNUqQbQ
We had the Piss Christ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ) and society did not burn down (though, perhaps some people wanted it to)
And, of course, the Last Temptation of Christ.
Now, one could say, well, this is all from dominant Western society and religion, though, of course, really, it is not very dominant anymore, despite what a lot of handwringers might say.
In general, I prefer to be respectful of religion, understanding of faith, and demanding only that tolerance be equally extended, and no dominance allowed of any particular group. People are free to practice or to ignore. People are free to explore, interrogate, reject, mock, and appropriate. Otherwise, are we not just putting the beliefs, myths, stories and ideas of natives on their own reservation, under glass? They are not strong enough to stand up to the vicissitudes of society like "real" religions. I think that would be a mistake.
The deserve equal dignity (and yes, I am well aware of the attempts to extirpate native beliefs, languages, and practices) and equal treatment and responsibilities with any other faith practice in the country. That does mean that they may get adopted and adapted by others. They may change and evolve (what was the Ghost Dance but an evolution and reaction to seemingly apocalyptic events, and it was not a universally embraced practice either; not every belief system thought the idea of the dead coming back was such a great idea), and they may die. Religious beliefs, sects and ideas live only as long as their believers and I don't think we can demand or mandate belief or police its edges. We have to trust individuals and the societies they create for themselves.
I have wandered around a lot here in response, but I guess I could not help but share a slice of the thoughts your conversations spark.
Finally, I wanted to appreciate an actor who has come more and more to my attention. He is in Reservation Dogs (playing a cop), and I first saw him in Longmire (also playing a cop) and currently am watching him in Dark Winds (once again, playing a cop), but his range is definitely beyond any kind of typecasting. Zahn McClarnon, for whom I note the Wikipedia entry states (I am sure with no errors at all) often visited the Blackfeet Indian Reservation (so that is a second intersection with Nancy), is really quite a fantastic actor. He has been in lots of roles, often with an emphasis on being Indian, but always brough a lot more dimension to his performances. I just saw him back, at least for a brief stint, on season 4 of Westworld, where he has been both the stereotypical Indian, and also in some very nuanced science fiction scenarios as one of the android "hosts" in the show. Also, he had a really memorable role in the horror western Bone Tomahawk, where he played an against type Indian, the only person in town who was actually well educated (called "Professor") and he immediately knows what is going on and tells the sheriff and the other cowboys not to go after the monsters, and of course they don't listen. Anyway, I have never heard him interviewed, and I am not sure what he as an artist might have to add to the whole conversation, but I can imagine you two would do a great interview with him, should that ever be relevant.
Keep up the great work!
Yellowstone trivia: Luke Grimes who plays Kasey Dutton, aka the Native American woman’s husband, starred alongside Amber Heard in Mandy Lane.
Sarah - reset days a very important. I’m a big fan of them. Hope you are feeling better.
I loved hearing you both wrestle with forgiveness. It is an honest discussion, everyone should listen to it. I wrestle with forgiveness. I think it is the only honest approach. De Boer's piece is about people who don't wrestle with it. The NY Mag piece is written by someone who doesn't wrestle either - those who wrestle with forgiveness are (in this understanding) bad themselves, they know they will need it - unlike the non-wrestlers. There is some truth to this, probably. I think that we all have, do, will need forgiveness. Non-wrestlers whistle past that particular graveyard.
Nancy, I think it was you who mentioned that everyone deserves forgiveness. I know what you mean, I think. But I wouldn't say that. It should be granted to us, but it can't really be earned - it isn't penance. That is the scandal of it. I don't think I can ever be justified in looking downhill at someone else, forgetting when I have needed forgiveness - I should not withhold it ... but there is an essential injustice that seems to linger in granting it. We are letting them off the hook, it seems. We are not, but it feels too easy, that is the scandal of it. It isn't easy at all - it is the hardest thing in some ways.
You both wrestled with the contradiction of some who lack forgiveness for culture war missteps, but who want people released from prison for what is objectively worse. I think I mostly disagree with both positions. There is a justice that is due for someone who has done a wrong big enough to require incarceration. What constitutes big enough and what kind of incarceration serves society are good questions, but even if there was a rehabilitation pill that instantly worked, some justice for the sake of the victim doesn't seem out of place. Rehabilitation and what is good for everyone is completely missing, of course, from the culture war inflictors of unjust penalties.
It might be unseemly to reference something I have written, but I am replying because I was wrestling with all of this myself - but in reference to something completely different, the mass shooters. Anyway, love to hear what you think if you read it - I realize it is a lot to ask and you can't read everything sent to you by readers. But my thing is called The Embassy - theembassy.substack.com - and the link to the latest piece is - https://theembassy.substack.com/p/7354920c-e5fc-474e-9756-773ebdc4ba55.
In any event, I enjoy listening to and reading you both. I come from a little bit of a different place, but I appreciate your thoughtfulness and honesty - and wrestling. There isn't enough of it.
Thanks!