Sarah responds: OMG so many great books on this list. But to add! "Helter Skelter" is a 1974 true-crime classic about the Charles Manson murders, written by the prosecutor Vincent Bugliosi (with Curt Gentry). If you were a Stephen King-addled adolescent with a yen for celebrity, this was a must-read, about the warping power of drugs, moral collapse among the counterculture, and the dissolution of the late 60s. The crime is ghastly, I can still remember details, but what also stands out is the trial, an absolute circus before such things were televised. And the opening scene, where bodies are found by police at Roman Polanski's place, and one is described as looking like a mannequin dipped in red paint, remains one of the most vivid descriptions I've ever read.
Uff dah, Sarah. You've got a stronger stomach than me! (MN expression of consternation and delight).
Have either of you read Killers of the Flower Moon? I thought that was done in a similarly ideal tone: not especially sensational, more historical. It's about Native Americans from OK that are targeted for their oil money. David Grann.
Awwww. And your daughter is working on a TV show in Oklahoma still? Btw I've got to watch more Reservation Dogs. The first episode with a stolen chip truck was funny and tense!
This is Sarah (of the strong stomach): I've heard that book is AMAZING, I have it on my shelf in the *enormous* "to read" pile, which is one of the joys and shames of my life.
Sarah, have you read Chaos by Tom O’Neill? Came out in 2019. Goes really in depth into the investigate and trial, calling into question the heater skelter narrative. He goes through several competitive theories, not all which can be true but they each have some convincing elements. Worth checking out!
The Troubles....I grew up in the Philippines almost completely ignorant about this. Raised in as the son of a Pentecostal missionary I couldn't understand why Protestants and Catholics would be such bitter enemies. I was so naïve about politics and religion and humanity in general. Great book!
Thank you? for adding to my already toppling must-read list. I loved The Adversary,too. Maybe Devil in the White City, too. I wish the documentary The Keepers were a book. I'm binging it as I write. It would be a helluva good read.
This lovely article has me thinking about the reasons we are drawn, if we are to read about true crime. I started trying analyze what it is in a true crime story that draws me in. One thing I am always curious about is the moment of the first murder. At least when it comes to serial killers. How does the murderer come to that place in the arc of his or her life where they decide to cross that line of no going back? Where along the way do they transform from a “normal” human being to someone capable of horrific crimes? Was there some moment or event in their life that made their ultimate fate inevitable? Were they born psychopaths? It does seem as though the myths of the “monster”, the super intelligent, witty, evil embodied villains are just that. Myths. The real serial killers turn out to be banal. Ordinary. And that’s maybe the most disturbing and fascinating thing of all.
Perhaps it’s something that will always fascinate us.
Perhaps also the dispassionate looking on and analyzing these horrors is away to disarm our nightmares.
So...I listened to "The Journalist and the Murderer" while travelling to CT last weekend. Fantastic listen. Just as you mentioned here, an interesting meditation on where the line in is when a journalist is trying to gain the trust of someone they are writing about. I agree that it feels like McGinnis betrayed MacDonald.
I also noticed in one of your Tweets about authors works you have the most of that you mentioned Joan Didion. Of course since I enjoy your writing and this podcast so much I had to investigate. As I was heading down that rabbit hole I ended up downloading her Collected Essays. In the introduction to Slouching Towards Bethlehem, I came across her line "“Writers are always selling somebody out” and I thought "wow I just read about that whole idea in "The Journalist and the Murderer". I got to feeling very clever and learned and sat down to comment to that effect here. Then I re-read your blurb about "The Journalist and the Murderer" and saw that you actual mentioned that same line in it. Of course you did! Apparently I am not half as clever as I think I am. hahahaha
Have been listening to "Shot in the Heart" this week. Wonderful book. I didn't grow up in the States so so much of this is new to me. I didn't realize there was so much tie in with the Mormons and their history. It amazes me how many parallels there are in the religious experiences and behaviors among seemingly different faiths. But then again.....it is really the human story I guess....at any rate fascinating reading.
Keep up the good work. This podcast is a treasure trove! Love the book club idea! Have a great weekend!
I grew up in the Philippines. My parents were independent Pentecostal Missionaries. Some of the "ghost stories" from "Shot Through the Heart" could have been lifted right out of the stories my mother would tell. Reading Mikal Gilmore's account....his grappling with the legacy...the meaning...the myths...I can't tell you how many times I've gone down that rabbit hole. My parents have both passed now but I was able to talk to my mother some as an adult before senility began to take her away. She did her own grappling and analyzing.
There was a part of me that sometimes wished I could have had that "blessed assurance". There is also a huge part of me that would always feel trapped and claustrophobic when I thought of having to give up the mystery of what it means to be human for dogma.
Ok...well...enough of that for now :-)
But in this podcast and your writing and others of the same ilk I feel like I have found my people. I confess...I doom scroll on twitter sometimes... but wow...what a cesspool. Thanks for being an island of sanity :-)
Thinking about my previous reply I made a horrible generalization "But in this podcast and your writing and others of the same ilk " ...apologies...I know better than to do that.....there is enough lumping of people into categories as it is. You have something very unique going here and I still have a lot of growing up to do in this regard...even after 53 years on the 3rd Rock from the Sun :-)
couldn't a perp have DNA placed in/on his/her/their person, report an assault, and cause their own DNA from implicating themselves in a previous crime?
any books or stories fiction or true crime on that premise?
I came back to re-read this post since Nancy tweeted about it this morning. Interesting list of which I've read only "Helter Skelter" and "In Cold Blood", several decades ago.
I'd like to add "The Man from the Train" by Bill James and his daughter Rachel McCarthy James, about a serial killer from more than a century ago. And his book "Popular Crime", from 2011, a collection of short tidbits to longer essays about a very wide range of crimes.
I’ve been reading “To The Bridge”… damn Nancy… you are a hell of a writer… finished “Destination Gacy”….you lay it out for the reader… no frills… Let the reader marinate in their reactions to what they’ve read… which probably tells us a lot about ourselves as much as about what we are reading… more please… might sound weird for such dark material… but there is beauty here… humanity laid bare…
Sarah responds: OMG so many great books on this list. But to add! "Helter Skelter" is a 1974 true-crime classic about the Charles Manson murders, written by the prosecutor Vincent Bugliosi (with Curt Gentry). If you were a Stephen King-addled adolescent with a yen for celebrity, this was a must-read, about the warping power of drugs, moral collapse among the counterculture, and the dissolution of the late 60s. The crime is ghastly, I can still remember details, but what also stands out is the trial, an absolute circus before such things were televised. And the opening scene, where bodies are found by police at Roman Polanski's place, and one is described as looking like a mannequin dipped in red paint, remains one of the most vivid descriptions I've ever read.
Uff dah, Sarah. You've got a stronger stomach than me! (MN expression of consternation and delight).
Have either of you read Killers of the Flower Moon? I thought that was done in a similarly ideal tone: not especially sensational, more historical. It's about Native Americans from OK that are targeted for their oil money. David Grann.
My ex - a Native from Oklahoma - loved that book. Film is coming out soon. Will read! - NR
Awwww. And your daughter is working on a TV show in Oklahoma still? Btw I've got to watch more Reservation Dogs. The first episode with a stolen chip truck was funny and tense!
Yup! Heading to see her there this week
This is Sarah (of the strong stomach): I've heard that book is AMAZING, I have it on my shelf in the *enormous* "to read" pile, which is one of the joys and shames of my life.
Sarah, have you read Chaos by Tom O’Neill? Came out in 2019. Goes really in depth into the investigate and trial, calling into question the heater skelter narrative. He goes through several competitive theories, not all which can be true but they each have some convincing elements. Worth checking out!
I read helter skelter when I was about 18. Think I’ll reread that one; I loved it the first time.
I read “Say Nothing” based only on Moynihan’s recommendation on the podcast. It’s great!
The Troubles....I grew up in the Philippines almost completely ignorant about this. Raised in as the son of a Pentecostal missionary I couldn't understand why Protestants and Catholics would be such bitter enemies. I was so naïve about politics and religion and humanity in general. Great book!
Thank you? for adding to my already toppling must-read list. I loved The Adversary,too. Maybe Devil in the White City, too. I wish the documentary The Keepers were a book. I'm binging it as I write. It would be a helluva good read.
I loved "The Keepers," it was so amazing. -- SH
You should really add Terri Jentz’ wonderful book/memoir “Strange Piece of Paradise” published first in 2006, but rumored for a TV adaptation.
That book was crazy. Adding to list
This lovely article has me thinking about the reasons we are drawn, if we are to read about true crime. I started trying analyze what it is in a true crime story that draws me in. One thing I am always curious about is the moment of the first murder. At least when it comes to serial killers. How does the murderer come to that place in the arc of his or her life where they decide to cross that line of no going back? Where along the way do they transform from a “normal” human being to someone capable of horrific crimes? Was there some moment or event in their life that made their ultimate fate inevitable? Were they born psychopaths? It does seem as though the myths of the “monster”, the super intelligent, witty, evil embodied villains are just that. Myths. The real serial killers turn out to be banal. Ordinary. And that’s maybe the most disturbing and fascinating thing of all.
Perhaps it’s something that will always fascinate us.
Perhaps also the dispassionate looking on and analyzing these horrors is away to disarm our nightmares.
Thanks for the list and the mental stimulation.
And… a belated Happy Mothers Day :-)
Hi Don - Nancy here. Having written now about three known killers, and I suspect one or two others, it's my experience that the tipping point varies so greatly. For Gacy, it was a combination of feeling both not good enough and superior to everyone. Here's a link to my reading about interviewing him. https://www.palomamedia.com/post/going-to-gacy-a-cross-country-journey-to-shake-the-devil-s-hand. I can also recommend the new three-part doc, which I wanted last week https://www.netflix.com/title/81298614
Ooh! Thanks for this! I wish I could've hung out with you all! Xo from St Paul exurbs!
So...I listened to "The Journalist and the Murderer" while travelling to CT last weekend. Fantastic listen. Just as you mentioned here, an interesting meditation on where the line in is when a journalist is trying to gain the trust of someone they are writing about. I agree that it feels like McGinnis betrayed MacDonald.
I also noticed in one of your Tweets about authors works you have the most of that you mentioned Joan Didion. Of course since I enjoy your writing and this podcast so much I had to investigate. As I was heading down that rabbit hole I ended up downloading her Collected Essays. In the introduction to Slouching Towards Bethlehem, I came across her line "“Writers are always selling somebody out” and I thought "wow I just read about that whole idea in "The Journalist and the Murderer". I got to feeling very clever and learned and sat down to comment to that effect here. Then I re-read your blurb about "The Journalist and the Murderer" and saw that you actual mentioned that same line in it. Of course you did! Apparently I am not half as clever as I think I am. hahahaha
Have been listening to "Shot in the Heart" this week. Wonderful book. I didn't grow up in the States so so much of this is new to me. I didn't realize there was so much tie in with the Mormons and their history. It amazes me how many parallels there are in the religious experiences and behaviors among seemingly different faiths. But then again.....it is really the human story I guess....at any rate fascinating reading.
Keep up the good work. This podcast is a treasure trove! Love the book club idea! Have a great weekend!
Where did you grow up Don? And thank you for the close listening!
I grew up in the Philippines. My parents were independent Pentecostal Missionaries. Some of the "ghost stories" from "Shot Through the Heart" could have been lifted right out of the stories my mother would tell. Reading Mikal Gilmore's account....his grappling with the legacy...the meaning...the myths...I can't tell you how many times I've gone down that rabbit hole. My parents have both passed now but I was able to talk to my mother some as an adult before senility began to take her away. She did her own grappling and analyzing.
There was a part of me that sometimes wished I could have had that "blessed assurance". There is also a huge part of me that would always feel trapped and claustrophobic when I thought of having to give up the mystery of what it means to be human for dogma.
Ok...well...enough of that for now :-)
But in this podcast and your writing and others of the same ilk I feel like I have found my people. I confess...I doom scroll on twitter sometimes... but wow...what a cesspool. Thanks for being an island of sanity :-)
Cheers to sanity! x
Thinking about my previous reply I made a horrible generalization "But in this podcast and your writing and others of the same ilk " ...apologies...I know better than to do that.....there is enough lumping of people into categories as it is. You have something very unique going here and I still have a lot of growing up to do in this regard...even after 53 years on the 3rd Rock from the Sun :-)
please see WSJ article in link below.
couldn't a perp have DNA placed in/on his/her/their person, report an assault, and cause their own DNA from implicating themselves in a previous crime?
any books or stories fiction or true crime on that premise?
https://www.wsj.com/articles/lawmakers-look-to-ban-use-of-sexual-assault-victim-dna-in-unrelated-cases-11651195210?mod=hp_listb_pos2
I came back to re-read this post since Nancy tweeted about it this morning. Interesting list of which I've read only "Helter Skelter" and "In Cold Blood", several decades ago.
I'd like to add "The Man from the Train" by Bill James and his daughter Rachel McCarthy James, about a serial killer from more than a century ago. And his book "Popular Crime", from 2011, a collection of short tidbits to longer essays about a very wide range of crimes.
Still listening to “Shot in the Heart”. Devastating. Heartbreaking.
I’ve been reading “To The Bridge”… damn Nancy… you are a hell of a writer… finished “Destination Gacy”….you lay it out for the reader… no frills… Let the reader marinate in their reactions to what they’ve read… which probably tells us a lot about ourselves as much as about what we are reading… more please… might sound weird for such dark material… but there is beauty here… humanity laid bare…