Amber Heard's "protection" of Johnny Depp comes in question as TMZ takes the stand, and Nancy and Sarah debate the highly controversial, five-times-married spiritual leader Teal Swan
Personally, I do think the tie ins with the "recovered memory" and Satanic Panic methodology, as well as the general control structure of the Swan organization screams abuse and manipulation. That does not mean, of course, that she can't say things that make sense. Part of that is what makes an effective cult leader. You have to connect with the wider public, and then hook the most vulnerable, for whatever reason, to sell the "deeper truths" and get them working for you, paying you, or whatever. I will say that I am no expert but this cult stuff has been in the air for as far back as I can remember, from Jonestown to the Rajneeshis, the Moonies, the Branch Davidians, Heaven's Gate, etc.
I think Sarah does have a point in the discussion of this search for personal meaning with the gradual diminishment of prominent public religion. Of course, the United States is still a very religious country overall, but lots of people, often those of the higher educated elite, lose these ties to meaning and look to replace them with other, often crazier, things.
I was impacted by the lesser sweep of the Satanic Panic back in my day. The main body of it seems to have been manufacturing accusations of ritual sexual abuse against day care providers and others and putting people in jail. For me, it made it hard for some people to play Dungeons & Dragons and it made being a curious and imaginative nerd who liked fantasy and science fiction literature very insular and highly suspicious of fundamentalist religion. My family was nothing like that, and nobody every tried to burn my books, but I remember meeting people who were certain that rolling dice and telling stories about heroes and monsters was satanic. I even got challenged about it in a scholarship interview in the 80s (which flabbergasted me that supposed smart people in the academy were raising D&D as a "danger", anyway, I didn't get that scholarship). So, nobody I knew had any direct negative impact, but it was in the air, in the atmosphere, and was a weird time in the 80s to be in high school and college.
It's nothing compared to the ruined lives and people locked up on false charges (not to mention the supposed victims harmed with being deluded into believing that had trauma and receiving implanted false memories).
Anyone plugged into validating any of that is a villain in my opinion.
It was very strange, and of course seeped even into the 90s. The strangest corner of it that also came to my attention is this song by Joan Baez, Play Me Backwards, which is clearly about the whole recovered memories/satanic ritual abuse, which seems like a very strange things for the songbird of the 60s revolution to take up along with the psychological hucksters and the fundamentalist Christians. It is a very catchy song, but, the lyrics are 100% conspiracy https://open.spotify.com/track/3LzAtFYsYufHGOqfVeNl4u?si=f3e8f4778d644513
Maybe when you get addicted to moral panic, you just go from one thing to another, as long as it confirms your overall world views.
Hoping that Sarah will write up her thoughts and insights on the Depp-Heard trial as a long form article a la the New Yorker back in the Tina Brown days!
Popping in here (and away from your episode) for a sec to say that "the significance of the restraining order" AH filed is 1) two sets of police came over the course of the evening of May 21 when AH alleges JD attacked her and a) they had bodycam footage that shoes there was no damage to the penthouses (AH alleged that JD trashed them), and b) one of the officers was trained in Domestic Violence, and she and at least 2 of the officers testified they saw no evidence of any injuries on AH, only that she looked like maybe she'd been crying, 2) The day after that event & those 911 calls (and the days leading up to the day she went to the courthouse ) several witnesses saw her w/o any signs of injury to her face, but then on the day of the PRO she had a big bruise under her right eye and 4) the TMZ guy (Tremaine?) testified that TMZ was told to look specifically for that bruise so they could take photos. 4) JD and AH's marriage counselor Dr. Anderson testified that she had a session w AH about the pending divorce and AH asked her something to the effect of "Will she have a divorce advantage if she leaves him but files a DV accusation w the police first." ...Idk, I'm still not going to hate on AH, but... If you listen to Dr. Kirk Honda''s Psychology in Seattle podcast, he does a truly unbiased analysis of the testimony given by both sides' expert psychologists (including Dr. Anderson's testimony in his "JD v AH #15&16" episode). Interesting stuff.
Sorry about the two month old comment (again), but in regards to a few things that were asked (and also commented on):
Looking at the jury when testifying is actually coached to witnesses by some lawyers in a variety of situations - mostly where you see it is in “expert” testimony or testimony by cops or some other authority. I’ve heard it explained as seeming like the relationship of an instructor lecturing students about something. When they are explaining something technical to the jury it helps if they make eye contact and talk to the jury rather than the lawyers.
With victims or other witnesses that may be emotionally affected by testifying It’s much more common for them to stay focused on the lawyer asking the questions or anywhere but the jury just as a tool to keep them focused while going through the difficult testimony.
The en vogue thing now for victims and witnesses is to give them an dog to sit with them at the witness box (the jury can’t see the dog because it’s tucked away at the witnesses feet on the stand), but this is another place an emotional witness might use to focus on as they talk to the lawyers. (My experience is all criminal, but it makes sense that it would work that way in civil cases too).
I think the ladies were spot on in speculating that the jurors would be exhausted in making eye contact with heard over the course of hours of testimony like that.
As far as the jurors conduct (at least in CA in criminal cases) they are instructed: do not talk about the case or form any opinions about the case until the point at which the jurors are all together to deliberate after the testimony, arguments and instructions have been given. That includes fellow jurors AND spouses/loved ones, although there is no way to enforce the latter - that’s on the honor system. So, if Nancy told her husband she would be in technical violation of the instructions - the idea being that if she talked to her husband about the case at all, it’s likely he might give an opinion or they might formulate an opinion together and that would destroy the integrity of the 12 jurors (and ONLY 12) in judgement on the case (once again, that’s criminal juries, I don’t know squat about civil, but I’m sure they have a similar instruction).
Just watched first episode of The Deep End. My boyfriend was trying to give her the benefit of the doubt... but the tense scene with her follower (mentioned in podcast) and the hot tub scene with Blake (over German girl coming over) were unsettling. It was hard to watch her tear down one of her followers and we felt like he wasn’t able to continue his argument. There also had to have been some stress to call her out in front of so many others. Boyfriend made up his mind once we got to hot tub scene. Teal was hypocritical to demand that Blake not follow his heart (live his truth) and be with the German girl so she could keep her producer and maintain her brand, when earlier in the episode she advised that people go live their truth even if it meant divorcing from marriage or abandoning their children.
We are watching Our Father next on Netflix. I think I remember The Fifth Column guys mentioning this a week or two back. Or maybe it was Jesse and Katie on B&R...Regardless, would love to hear the commentary from you two if you get a chance to watch!
All cult leaders have to put out some good, truly helpful content. If there was no good mixed in with the manipulative and bad there would be nothing to hook people with. It’s the bait. They then point to the the good, innocent stuff to deflect from all of the awful things they put people through. That’s why the ones that are good at it are hard to explain sometimes even for intelligent people. The good parts don’t excuse the bad parts. They start by helping people.
The new age cults love to steal content.
The material on why modern men and
women may struggle with relationships that Sarah mentioned did not originate with Teal Swan, but it can be life changing.
There are a lot of relationship self help sources, like Alison Armstrong, putting that relationship material out there in a non-cultish healthy way.
I’d love it if you did more on cults. It explains a lot about our society and I think one tried to suck me in once.
Access Consciousness is the group. They share similarities with Teal Swan. Of course, they go to great pains to try and explain why they aren’t a cult.
Also, the answer is fu**ing Saddam Hussein based solely on hygiene. He was reputed to be a germaphobe and extremely sensitive to body odor or bad dental hygiene. Sold! They’re all monsters so I’m definitely boinking the clean and hygienic one. You can’t stay clean in a cave so Bin Laden is kill. Also, he soooo had it coming. I’m marrying Gaddafi since he had a crazy harem - maybe he’ll forget I’m there and I could just poison him after a few weeks…
Oh yay!!! I’m 2 minutes into my miserable cardio and “bing” got a new Smoke ‘em to make it bearable!
I’ll be honest I really couldn’t care less about the trial (I’d be curious why you think we or the media should care…) but I’m always up for some hot Nancy and Sarah chat.
Actually all indoor cardio is miserable for me (bad air quality outside this morning) but today was the dreaded recumbent elliptical. It does the job but it’s SOOOOO boring!
I just looked that up. It does look miserable. I love the regular elliptical but need a kick ass sound track. I’m sorry you can exercise outside. That’s always so much better.
I shouldn’t complain, I remember exercising with only my own thoughts to entertain me before modern electronics or trying to read a book on a treadmill. Podcasts and audiobooks have spoiled me rotten.
Hi, y’all. About five years ago I was in a jury for a civil case in federal court (so different rules are possible). We were not to discuss the case with anybody during the case, and to do our best to avoid any press coverage, etc. If we were exposed to press coverage we were expected to self-report.
We also weren’t to discuss the case with our fellow jurors before we began deliberation.
Eight days was a long time to be in a jury, I thought. Doing over a month on a jury would be awful (and I’m a Fairfax county resident, so theoretically I could have been called!). Just sitting there all day is no fun at all, and most of the time is slow and boring. With no books or magazines or internet.
The only people jurors are permitted to talk with about the case, until after they render a verdict, is the other jurors. They can ask the court questions for clarification of the rules, but not much else.
After hearing your discussion about Teal Swan I went and listened to “the Gateway” podcast about her and then watched the available episodes of “the Deep End”. Listening to Teal talk about her supposed abilities, especially to access very thought that has ever been thought, it occurred to me that she really believes that. I once had a coworker how would tell you with a straight face the most outlandish things about himself and his abilities. Things you knew were absolute BS. But I got the same feeling listening to him as I did to Teal Swan. Yes, the claims are complete crap, but she doesn’t know that. The alternative is even more chilling. That she does know it’s BS and is doing it anyway. It feels like she has concocted this identity for herself and she has surrounded herself with “true believers” who reinforce her delusions. She can never admit that it’s all BS because that is her whole identity.
Interesting! I tend to think of her as saying anything that will continue to give her the advantage, and trying to spread half-miraculous things doesn't work. I think it's more terrifying if the DOES believe it!
Thinking about what you said here... and about the quote in your Twitter post..."If you think you have the moral high ground, you can do some really dreadful things"(Flanagan)... ruminating over the podcast and documentary series on Teal Swan more. I think you are right. If she does actually believe she has special gifts and is uniquely qualified to “help” people, that she has the moral high ground, then that makes her especially dangerous. Especially if she doesn’t feel bound by “man’s law” and traditional structures of accountability because she has transcended them.
One thing I always think about when I watch these things is that we need to be much more skeptical as people in general. How do people get duped by this nonsense? I guess it’s the same question you could ask about how people get duped by Trump and his BS about the stolen election. Is it because they need to believe?
Just finished listening to the episode. You are churning out content like there's no tomorrow.
I am on team Nancy as far as my reaction to Teal Swan. But I do appreciate Sarah trying to take a more detached and circumspect approach. I knew I had heard of this person before, and I would point to episode 48 of the Conspirituality Podcast (https://www.buzzsprout.com/1875696/9419129-48-traumatic-influence-w-kyra-haglund-hala-khouri ) (a show I have sometimes listened to after hearing Bridgette Phetasy interview one of the podcasters involved) (Walk Ins Welcome Episode 126 https://podcasts.apple.com/tt/podcast/e126-julian-walker-on-the-overlap-between-magical/id1437447846?i=1000523799817 (including this just for sake of completeness; I don't think they talked about Teal Swan)).
Personally, I do think the tie ins with the "recovered memory" and Satanic Panic methodology, as well as the general control structure of the Swan organization screams abuse and manipulation. That does not mean, of course, that she can't say things that make sense. Part of that is what makes an effective cult leader. You have to connect with the wider public, and then hook the most vulnerable, for whatever reason, to sell the "deeper truths" and get them working for you, paying you, or whatever. I will say that I am no expert but this cult stuff has been in the air for as far back as I can remember, from Jonestown to the Rajneeshis, the Moonies, the Branch Davidians, Heaven's Gate, etc.
I think Sarah does have a point in the discussion of this search for personal meaning with the gradual diminishment of prominent public religion. Of course, the United States is still a very religious country overall, but lots of people, often those of the higher educated elite, lose these ties to meaning and look to replace them with other, often crazier, things.
I was impacted by the lesser sweep of the Satanic Panic back in my day. The main body of it seems to have been manufacturing accusations of ritual sexual abuse against day care providers and others and putting people in jail. For me, it made it hard for some people to play Dungeons & Dragons and it made being a curious and imaginative nerd who liked fantasy and science fiction literature very insular and highly suspicious of fundamentalist religion. My family was nothing like that, and nobody every tried to burn my books, but I remember meeting people who were certain that rolling dice and telling stories about heroes and monsters was satanic. I even got challenged about it in a scholarship interview in the 80s (which flabbergasted me that supposed smart people in the academy were raising D&D as a "danger", anyway, I didn't get that scholarship). So, nobody I knew had any direct negative impact, but it was in the air, in the atmosphere, and was a weird time in the 80s to be in high school and college.
It's nothing compared to the ruined lives and people locked up on false charges (not to mention the supposed victims harmed with being deluded into believing that had trauma and receiving implanted false memories).
Anyone plugged into validating any of that is a villain in my opinion.
It was very strange, and of course seeped even into the 90s. The strangest corner of it that also came to my attention is this song by Joan Baez, Play Me Backwards, which is clearly about the whole recovered memories/satanic ritual abuse, which seems like a very strange things for the songbird of the 60s revolution to take up along with the psychological hucksters and the fundamentalist Christians. It is a very catchy song, but, the lyrics are 100% conspiracy https://open.spotify.com/track/3LzAtFYsYufHGOqfVeNl4u?si=f3e8f4778d644513
Maybe when you get addicted to moral panic, you just go from one thing to another, as long as it confirms your overall world views.
Keep up the good work!
What a fantastic and thorough comment. Sarah Hepola, we have the best listeners xx
“Anyone plugged into validating any of that is a villain in my opinion.” 💯💯💯💯💯
Hoping that Sarah will write up her thoughts and insights on the Depp-Heard trial as a long form article a la the New Yorker back in the Tina Brown days!
Popping in here (and away from your episode) for a sec to say that "the significance of the restraining order" AH filed is 1) two sets of police came over the course of the evening of May 21 when AH alleges JD attacked her and a) they had bodycam footage that shoes there was no damage to the penthouses (AH alleged that JD trashed them), and b) one of the officers was trained in Domestic Violence, and she and at least 2 of the officers testified they saw no evidence of any injuries on AH, only that she looked like maybe she'd been crying, 2) The day after that event & those 911 calls (and the days leading up to the day she went to the courthouse ) several witnesses saw her w/o any signs of injury to her face, but then on the day of the PRO she had a big bruise under her right eye and 4) the TMZ guy (Tremaine?) testified that TMZ was told to look specifically for that bruise so they could take photos. 4) JD and AH's marriage counselor Dr. Anderson testified that she had a session w AH about the pending divorce and AH asked her something to the effect of "Will she have a divorce advantage if she leaves him but files a DV accusation w the police first." ...Idk, I'm still not going to hate on AH, but... If you listen to Dr. Kirk Honda''s Psychology in Seattle podcast, he does a truly unbiased analysis of the testimony given by both sides' expert psychologists (including Dr. Anderson's testimony in his "JD v AH #15&16" episode). Interesting stuff.
Sorry about the two month old comment (again), but in regards to a few things that were asked (and also commented on):
Looking at the jury when testifying is actually coached to witnesses by some lawyers in a variety of situations - mostly where you see it is in “expert” testimony or testimony by cops or some other authority. I’ve heard it explained as seeming like the relationship of an instructor lecturing students about something. When they are explaining something technical to the jury it helps if they make eye contact and talk to the jury rather than the lawyers.
With victims or other witnesses that may be emotionally affected by testifying It’s much more common for them to stay focused on the lawyer asking the questions or anywhere but the jury just as a tool to keep them focused while going through the difficult testimony.
The en vogue thing now for victims and witnesses is to give them an dog to sit with them at the witness box (the jury can’t see the dog because it’s tucked away at the witnesses feet on the stand), but this is another place an emotional witness might use to focus on as they talk to the lawyers. (My experience is all criminal, but it makes sense that it would work that way in civil cases too).
I think the ladies were spot on in speculating that the jurors would be exhausted in making eye contact with heard over the course of hours of testimony like that.
As far as the jurors conduct (at least in CA in criminal cases) they are instructed: do not talk about the case or form any opinions about the case until the point at which the jurors are all together to deliberate after the testimony, arguments and instructions have been given. That includes fellow jurors AND spouses/loved ones, although there is no way to enforce the latter - that’s on the honor system. So, if Nancy told her husband she would be in technical violation of the instructions - the idea being that if she talked to her husband about the case at all, it’s likely he might give an opinion or they might formulate an opinion together and that would destroy the integrity of the 12 jurors (and ONLY 12) in judgement on the case (once again, that’s criminal juries, I don’t know squat about civil, but I’m sure they have a similar instruction).
Thank you!
Just watched first episode of The Deep End. My boyfriend was trying to give her the benefit of the doubt... but the tense scene with her follower (mentioned in podcast) and the hot tub scene with Blake (over German girl coming over) were unsettling. It was hard to watch her tear down one of her followers and we felt like he wasn’t able to continue his argument. There also had to have been some stress to call her out in front of so many others. Boyfriend made up his mind once we got to hot tub scene. Teal was hypocritical to demand that Blake not follow his heart (live his truth) and be with the German girl so she could keep her producer and maintain her brand, when earlier in the episode she advised that people go live their truth even if it meant divorcing from marriage or abandoning their children.
I sympathize with your boyfriend's journey. It has been mine as well. Welp, we tried. -- SH
It's not going to get better...
We are watching Our Father next on Netflix. I think I remember The Fifth Column guys mentioning this a week or two back. Or maybe it was Jesse and Katie on B&R...Regardless, would love to hear the commentary from you two if you get a chance to watch!
Oh! It was Michael Rapaport on the Fifth Column live show. I was fascinated by that. I have time tonight, and I will watch! -- SH
All cult leaders have to put out some good, truly helpful content. If there was no good mixed in with the manipulative and bad there would be nothing to hook people with. It’s the bait. They then point to the the good, innocent stuff to deflect from all of the awful things they put people through. That’s why the ones that are good at it are hard to explain sometimes even for intelligent people. The good parts don’t excuse the bad parts. They start by helping people.
The new age cults love to steal content.
The material on why modern men and
women may struggle with relationships that Sarah mentioned did not originate with Teal Swan, but it can be life changing.
There are a lot of relationship self help sources, like Alison Armstrong, putting that relationship material out there in a non-cultish healthy way.
I’d love it if you did more on cults. It explains a lot about our society and I think one tried to suck me in once.
Which cult, if you're comfortable saying
Access Consciousness is the group. They share similarities with Teal Swan. Of course, they go to great pains to try and explain why they aren’t a cult.
They advertise themselves as self-help.
Also, the answer is fu**ing Saddam Hussein based solely on hygiene. He was reputed to be a germaphobe and extremely sensitive to body odor or bad dental hygiene. Sold! They’re all monsters so I’m definitely boinking the clean and hygienic one. You can’t stay clean in a cave so Bin Laden is kill. Also, he soooo had it coming. I’m marrying Gaddafi since he had a crazy harem - maybe he’ll forget I’m there and I could just poison him after a few weeks…
Btw I’m answering for 2000… whenever the original question was asked. I’m aware they’re all irrelevant has beens now ;)
Has been dead a minute…sorry 🥁
Oh yay!!! I’m 2 minutes into my miserable cardio and “bing” got a new Smoke ‘em to make it bearable!
I’ll be honest I really couldn’t care less about the trial (I’d be curious why you think we or the media should care…) but I’m always up for some hot Nancy and Sarah chat.
What qualifies as miserable cardio?
Actually all indoor cardio is miserable for me (bad air quality outside this morning) but today was the dreaded recumbent elliptical. It does the job but it’s SOOOOO boring!
I just looked that up. It does look miserable. I love the regular elliptical but need a kick ass sound track. I’m sorry you can exercise outside. That’s always so much better.
Outside is definitely better!
I shouldn’t complain, I remember exercising with only my own thoughts to entertain me before modern electronics or trying to read a book on a treadmill. Podcasts and audiobooks have spoiled me rotten.
Thanks!
Hi, y’all. About five years ago I was in a jury for a civil case in federal court (so different rules are possible). We were not to discuss the case with anybody during the case, and to do our best to avoid any press coverage, etc. If we were exposed to press coverage we were expected to self-report.
We also weren’t to discuss the case with our fellow jurors before we began deliberation.
Eight days was a long time to be in a jury, I thought. Doing over a month on a jury would be awful (and I’m a Fairfax county resident, so theoretically I could have been called!). Just sitting there all day is no fun at all, and most of the time is slow and boring. With no books or magazines or internet.
The only people jurors are permitted to talk with about the case, until after they render a verdict, is the other jurors. They can ask the court questions for clarification of the rules, but not much else.
After hearing your discussion about Teal Swan I went and listened to “the Gateway” podcast about her and then watched the available episodes of “the Deep End”. Listening to Teal talk about her supposed abilities, especially to access very thought that has ever been thought, it occurred to me that she really believes that. I once had a coworker how would tell you with a straight face the most outlandish things about himself and his abilities. Things you knew were absolute BS. But I got the same feeling listening to him as I did to Teal Swan. Yes, the claims are complete crap, but she doesn’t know that. The alternative is even more chilling. That she does know it’s BS and is doing it anyway. It feels like she has concocted this identity for herself and she has surrounded herself with “true believers” who reinforce her delusions. She can never admit that it’s all BS because that is her whole identity.
Interesting! I tend to think of her as saying anything that will continue to give her the advantage, and trying to spread half-miraculous things doesn't work. I think it's more terrifying if the DOES believe it!
Thinking about what you said here... and about the quote in your Twitter post..."If you think you have the moral high ground, you can do some really dreadful things"(Flanagan)... ruminating over the podcast and documentary series on Teal Swan more. I think you are right. If she does actually believe she has special gifts and is uniquely qualified to “help” people, that she has the moral high ground, then that makes her especially dangerous. Especially if she doesn’t feel bound by “man’s law” and traditional structures of accountability because she has transcended them.
One thing I always think about when I watch these things is that we need to be much more skeptical as people in general. How do people get duped by this nonsense? I guess it’s the same question you could ask about how people get duped by Trump and his BS about the stolen election. Is it because they need to believe?
A little late here, but I may have found the defense of Amber Heard that Sarah has been looking for: https://www.instagram.com/p/CeLYKMAoACl/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
https://www.theatlantic.com/books/archive/2022/05/everybody-thought-we-were-crazy-book-dennis-hopper/643114/ Potential Hollywood book club read? Their relationship has similarities to Depp-Heard. Personally Im intrigued by the idea that the Hopper-Hayward marriage may have been a starting point for threads of artistic touchstones that had major impacts on American culture.
Paul McCartney’s got Johnny Depp Fever 😳🤣 https://www.thedailybeast.com/paul-mccartney-features-visuals-of-johnny-depp-during-florida-concert-and-crowd-reportedly-cheers