After Sarah makes Nancy blush by talking about vibrators, we turn to the buzz that is Depp v. Heard. Kate Moss, TMZ leaks, potential ethical violations on the stand — the final days of testimony brought the bombshells.
Lawyers: We have questions! Restraining order protocol? Can you talk to anyone about a trial when you’re on a jury? Tell us in the comments!
The real fireworks start when Sarah and Nancy discuss Teal Swan, the controversial spiritual leader Nancy calls a dangerous cult leader and Sarah sees as a fascinating study in modern self-help. What makes a movement a “cult”? Why are people so lost? Sarah plugs one of her favorite essays, a “turkey leg of a cultural critique” by Tom Wolfe about the search for the authentic self.
Listener alert! We plan to record an episode of reader mail soon, so keep sending your questions, topics of interest, eruptions of outrage, and what sort of pie you want Nancy to bake and why it’s pecan.
Episode notes:
“20 Years Later, How The ‘Sex And The City’ Vibrator Episode Created a Lasting Buzz,” by Lynn Comella (Forbes)
“Jane Fonda Says People Kept Sending Her Vibrators After an Episode of Grace and Frankie,” by Carrie Wittmer (Glamour)
Dr. Spiegel (witness for defense) cross-examined over ethics of evaluating Depp
The Goldwater Rule (Psychology Today)
Johnny Depp’s final testimony: “It’s insane.”
“Amber Heard makes tearful return to stand, denies leaking photos to TMZ” (NY Post)
James From Court (Twitter)
Number of jurors in a civil case in Virginia (Virginia.gov)
Nick Wallis, “Reporting Depp v. Heard” (YouTube)
Every time Nancy uses the word “axiomatic,” Sarah wonders what it means, so if you’re in the same boat (Merriam-Webster)
The Deep End official trailer
“The Gateway: Teal Swan,” six-part podcast series by Gizmodo (Apple podcasts)
“Ten Signs of a Narcissistic Sociopath” (Choosing Therapy)
Michelle Remembers is the book Nancy couldn’t remember (Amazon). Here’s the original cover, holy.
Teal Swan on Instagram
The Teal Swan Cult (w/ ex-member Andey Fellowes)
Barbara Snow, therapist infamous for stoking the Satanic panic and whom Teal Swan credits with helping to reveal suppressed memories of ritual abuse (Wikipedia)
Nancy wrote a long feature for Portland Monthly about cult leader Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, in which she went out to the ranch in Eastern Oregon; it had been turned into a Christian children’s camp. The guardhouse was still at the entrance, and the place looked like an abandoned set of an old Western movie, rather than where orange-clad devotees lined the road as Rajneesh waved from one of his 94 Rolls Royces and planned mass poisonings. Alas this piece is not online! But here’s another she wrote, an interview with Win McCormack, co-founder of Mother Jones and other publications and a longtime critic of the Rajneesh and his followers.
Wild Wild Country doc about Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh (which Sarah accidentally called Wild Wild West, a very different movie), and speaking of: Nancy was speaking with a friend who lives in Byron Bay, Australia, who said that, while Rajneesh died in 1990, his followers live on, including some in nearby Mullumbimby.
Sarah went down the rabbit hole with some Jordan Peterson videos around 2018, the same time Nancy read and mostly liked Peterson’s 12 Rules for Life
Shot in the Heart by Mikal Gilmore, which, yes, we’ve mentioned before and in all likelihood will mention in just about every episode because it’s that good
Going Clear by Lawrence Wright, which Nancy listened to on audio and recommends
Teal Swan responds to the first episode of The Deep End
Tom Wolfe essay on “Me” decade (New York Magazine)
The Promise of Paradise, by Satya Bharti Franklin, is clear-eyed, frightening and heartbreaking. Anyone who says they are enlightened and the only person in the world worth following is guaranteed to bring unending misery to others. Ignore them.
“The People vs. Chesa Boudin,” by Annie Lowrey (Atlantic)
“Two cop killers and their progressive progeny: Kathy Boudin, David Gilbert, Chesa Boudin and progressive DAs,” by Ken Frydman (NY Daily News)
“Kathy Boudin: A Great Life and a Great Loss” (Columbia University eulogy)
Days of Rage, America's Radical Underground, the FBI, and the Forgotten Age of Revolutionary Violence, by Bryan Burrough
Nancy Rommelmann and Sarah Hepola on Back Talk with Bill Schulz
Outro song (for Teal Swan): “Sweet Talkin’ Woman,” Electric Light Orchestra
14. Bad Wives Club